Ok, time to have some debate other than Cism vs. non-Cism I am challenging those studied people out there who hold to a pretribulation rapture, to support their position. The 'rules': 1. No statements about the other side not understanding Scripture, etc. They are unhelpful and, IMO, prideful sorts of things. 2. I will not attempt to disprove the pretrib position. Instead, I am going to see if we can clarify the base assumptions required to hold this position. I will do so by challenging logic and supports. Do not questions as traps, I simply want to examine the fullness of the logic of the position. If I believe the logic is fallacious, then I will explain in detail why. If I believe the support is insufficient, I will show why and ask you to clarify. 3. I will not confuse the issue by trying to prove any other position in this particular thread. This is about examining the logic/assumptions of the pretrib position. In short, I would like to make this a productive debate, not a dueling verse session or a 'I am more enlightened than you' session. So, pretribs lets get started. You can start anywhere you want - just explain in full your thinking and supports as you go along. Otherwise I will ask a multitude of questions 'forcing' you to do so Who is up for the challenge?