Pre-trib rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by dwmoeller1, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Ok, time to have some debate other than Cism vs. non-Cism :)

    I am challenging those studied people out there who hold to a pretribulation rapture, to support their position.

    The 'rules':
    1. No statements about the other side not understanding Scripture, etc. They are unhelpful and, IMO, prideful sorts of things.

    2. I will not attempt to disprove the pretrib position. Instead, I am going to see if we can clarify the base assumptions required to hold this position. I will do so by challenging logic and supports. Do not questions as traps, I simply want to examine the fullness of the logic of the position. If I believe the logic is fallacious, then I will explain in detail why. If I believe the support is insufficient, I will show why and ask you to clarify.

    3. I will not confuse the issue by trying to prove any other position in this particular thread. This is about examining the logic/assumptions of the pretrib position.

    In short, I would like to make this a productive debate, not a dueling verse session or a 'I am more enlightened than you' session.


    So, pretribs lets get started. You can start anywhere you want - just explain in full your thinking and supports as you go along. Otherwise I will ask a multitude of questions 'forcing' you to do so :) Who is up for the challenge?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Thank you Dwmoeller1. This could be interesting.
    I might mention that I have my own unique theory
    of the pretribuation rapture/resurrection. So, of course,
    I'm insulted when some here insist that it is Daryby-ism
    or Ice-ism or Scofield-ism or 'Mal-Couch'-ism. It is
    'Edward Edwards'-ism plain and simple.

    At least two people have tryed to blow me out of the
    water here because I mentioned the Baptist distintive:
    the Doctrine of Soul Compenticy. I learned with the Holy
    Spirit as teacher from the Bible what the future holds
    -- I didn't read it in some other book.

    Here is my writing: ten doctrines:
    -------------------------------------
    The correct eschatology: pretribulation rapture,
    pre-millinnial Second Advent of Jesus (physical Millinnial
    Kingdom) Futurist, is insperatable from the other Major
    Doctrines. No Major doctrine is complete without the
    pretirublation rapture/resurrection.

    Recall these are the Major Doctrines:

    Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
    Theology - The Study of God the Father
    Christology - The Study of God the Son
    Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
    Anthropology - The Study of Man
    Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
    Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
    Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
    Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)

    Eschatology - The Study of Last Things

    Eschatology is interwoven with the other Doctrines
    of the Bible. Obviously i spend all my time making
    a living and supporting the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    eschatology on the internet, else i would write a book showing
    how these great doctrines taught in the Bible all lead ONLY
    to the correct Eschatology: pretrib, pre-mill, and futuristic.
    (Well, till the Lord comes to glorify us at the pretribualtion
    rapture/resurrection - Then the whole Gentile Church will be
    Preterists :) )
    -----------------------------------
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley
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    In other words, you can't possibly consider the notion that it's false or you'd be out of a job?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    In the past we at BB (Baptist Board) have had two sets of
    conflicting definitions of basic terms. Here are the terms:

    Resurrection1 - the bringing of a dead person to life again
    in a glorified body

    Rapture1 - the transformation of a living person to
    life in a glorified body (like a resurrection1 only for a
    living person)

    Rapture2 - A Biblically predicted future event in which Jesus
    will first resurrect1 the dead Church Age saints then
    immediately rapture1 those Church Age
    elect saints alive at the time

    Resurrection2 - A Biblically predicted future event in which Jesus
    will first resurrect1 the dead Tribulation saints then
    immediately rapture1 those Tribulation
    elect saints alive at the time.

    Some usages:

    Post-tribulation ressurrection2-ist: "There is no such
    thing as a rapture"
    What do they mean?
    Rapture1 - It is in the Bible at 1 Thess 4:18, called
    the 'raptos' in Latin, the 'caught up' in English. - they can't mean that
    Rapture2 - that is probably what they mean???

    Ed Edwards: "I believe the Bible teaches a pretribulation
    rapture1/resurrection1"
    "I believe the Bible teaches a pretribulation rapture2.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    I actually retired from the secular job I spake about.
    I am, however, raising two grandchildren - which is more of
    work and lots less money than that secular job.

    Just for good sport, I'll go help them prove the post-tribulation
    rapture1/resurrection1 theory. Which we will find out is
    a post-tribulation ONLY rapture1/resurrection1 theory.
     
  6. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Please, none of that. Would like to keep this free of sniping. Thanks :)
     
  7. npetreley

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    I was just giving him a hard time for fun. I should have put a smiley in there, I guess. ;)
     
  8. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Definitions...good start. Forgive me if I nitpick, but clear and proper definitions are essential.

    Obviously resurrection can mean restoration to a non-glorified body (ie. Lazarus, Dorcas etc.), but I think we can agree that all eschatalogical references are as you state above.

    Here I must ask for support. I know of no verse which says the rapture IS the transformation. In fact, given the fact that rapture simply means 'caught away' that would seem to be an inaccurate definition. Sure, the transformation clearly takes place AT the rapture (assuming I Cor 15 and I Thess 4 are speaking of the same event), but it seems imprecise to say that the rapture IS the transformation. Can you clarify and/or support your definition?

    Just so we are clear. Which verse supports the fact that Christ will resurrect the dead at the rapture? I am guessing you are going to equate I Cor 15 event with I Thess 4 event correct? I agree, but can you state the basic reasons as to why you would equate the two events.

    First of all, can you clarify if you are saying that rapture1 and rapture2 are different events. Ditto to resurrection1 and resurrection2.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    dwmoeller1: //Can you clarify and/or support your definition?//

    No. What do you mean when you say 'rapture'?

    dwmoeller1: //First of all, can you clarify if you are saying that rapture1 and rapture2 are different events. Ditto to resurrection1 and resurrection2.//

    I'm not sure I can.
    But i'm sure we will not even be communicating with each other,
    let alone convincing anybody, until we figure out what we
    are talking about.

    I have to go raise some grandchildren.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The following words were written in this order by
    Ed Edwards (probably about 8 years ago):

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
    #10 Ed Edwards, Mar 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2007
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Smilies are nice :godisgood:

    Here is the Baptist smilie: :wavey:

    Note both feet are squarely on the ground
    (no dancing like carismatics).
    Note only one hand is raised at a time
    (no both hands like Pentacostals)
     
  12. dwmoeller1

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    When I refer to 'rapture' I refer to the catching up and gathering of those who are 'alive and remain'.

    And what do you mean that you can't support and/or clarify the defintion you give? This is going to be a short discussion if you can't support even you basic definitions ;)

    What do you mean you are not sure you can?!:confused: You gave the definitions, I was just curious if you meant to say that rapture1 and rapture2 (also resurrection1 and resurrection2) are different events. I am wondering why you put out two different (?) definitions. Is one yours and the other someone else's, are you making a distinction you plan on using, what? The two intent and importance of the two different definitions is escaping me - thus I ask for clarification.

    Its you who is doing the argument after all :)
     
  13. dwmoeller1

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    Is this post a start to your argument or is it still background material introducing your actual argument yet to come? It looks like the latter and if so, I will let all the unsupported statements slide until you get into the real meat of your argument.
     
  14. DQuixote

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    (1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

    (2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

    (3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

    (4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

    (5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

    Yea! We won't be here for the Trib!! Hooray!!
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    I've been 'discussing' eschatology since June 1984 on
    Bulletin Boards (bbs) alone. At some time along that route
    I started saving the more interesting posts for later re-use.

    Note I did NOT say 23 years (come June) on the Internet
    (I hadn't gotten with Al Gore yet in 1984 to design
    the Internet) - I said 23 years (less 3 months) on Bulletin
    Boards (where you post now and read replies later).

    dwmoeller1: // Is this post a start to your argument or is it still
    background material introducing your actual
    argument yet to come?//

    Yes. :wavey:
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Thank you Bubba DQuixote -- i've got seven more :)

    pending ...
     
  17. dwmoeller1

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    Ahhh finally an argument to examine :) Let me boil down the logic for us all first then lets examine it in detail.

    The basic argument would go thus:
    Premise 1 - The rapture and the Second Coming are described in mutually contradictory terms.
    Premise 2 - Events which are described in mutually contradictory terms cannot possibly be the same events.
    Conclusion - Therefore, the rapture and the Second Coming must be seperate events.

    Accurate enough?

    As far as the logic goes, its logically sound (ie. IF the premises are correct, then the conclusion MUST be true). I will accept premise 2 without argument since its essentially accurate. Its premise 1 which you must demonstrate and that is what your post attempts to do.

    Before addressing your points. Let me make clear that in order for this logic to work, it must be shown that the events are described in mutually contradictary ways. Showing that they are described differently is not enough because if the descriptions are different without being mutually contradictory, then to still argue that they *must* be different events would employ the fallacy of begging the question - the events might be the same general event but being described from different points of view or with varying descriptors.

    These are not mutually contradictory. In simple terms, a single event can easily include both elements. The believers can be first caught up in the air as Christ returns and then immediately return with Him to the earth. In order to show these elements are mutually contradictory, you must be able to show either
    a. the believers who meet the Lord in the air cannot possibly immediately return with Christ to the earth
    b. or that the believers who come with Him in Rev 19 could not possibly have been one who were just on the earth and had immediately returned with Him

    If you claim that these elements are mutually contradictory without showing a. and/or b., then you would be guilty of begging the question.

    Now while you are thinking on how to refine your argument above, consider this fact:
    Verse 17 says "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..." According to Moulton's Greek Testament Grammar, the word for 'meet' has a special connatation: "It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary." When greeting dignitaries, the officials would go out of the city to meet the dignitary and them immediately return with him to the city.

    In fact, this word is used to describe exactly such an event in Acts 28:14-16. Paul is coming towards Rome. Some believers from Rome heard of his coming and went to meet (apantesis - same as in I Thess 4) him outside the city. They all them continued on to Rome. So, the believers both met Paul outside of Rome and returned with him to Rome.

    Thus, considering the special connatation of the word in I Thess 4, not only are the elements not mutually contradictory, we would expect that the rapture would include both a going forth to meet the coming dignitary (Christ) and an immediate returning with that dignitary.

    Neither I Thess 5:9 or Rev 3:10 make any mention of the rapture occuring before the tribulation. The passages merely say that
    a. God will keep us from wrath
    b. God will keep the believers of the Philadelphia church from the hour of temptation

    To make this argument work, you must show that these equate to 'taking the church away from the earth before the 7 year Great Trib. I will leave that task to you. Till that is done though, this point begs the question.

    Not mutually contradictory. All it shows is that unbelievers won't be raptured (which no one disputes). This does not logically mean that believers are not raptured at the same general event. If the rapture is the opening event of the Second Coming, then it not contradictory when one says that the Second Coming includes both the rapture (believers meet the Lord in the air) and also judgement on unbelievers.

     
  18. dwmoeller1

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    2 Thes 2:4:
    Let me first point out that you are assuming that 2 Thes 2:4 is speaking of the Second Coming but not the rapture. In fact, the subject of the chapter is "1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him". Since he is speaking to gentile believers, we know that 'our gathering to him' must be in reference to the rapture. Agreed?

    Going on, we see that Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord (vs 2). From I Thes 5:1, we know that the day of the Lord is at the time of the rapture. Agreed?

    So, on two counts, we can see that Paul in 2 Thes 2 has the rapture in mind. Now, you might say that vs. 1 is speaking of two different events - the rapture and the Second Coming. That begs the question (ie. it assumes to be true what you are trying to prove true - also called circular reasoning), but lets ignore that for now and that is true. Even if we grant that two different events are being referred to here, on what textual/logical basis do you hold that vs. 4 is speaking of the Second Coming rather than the rapture?

    Where in these passages is it indicated that the rapture could take place 'at any moment'?


    In summation of the whole post:
    Your basic argument is sound (ie. the structure of the argument means that IF the premises are true, then the conclusion must be true). The problem is that you haven't demonstrated that the key premise is true. In fact, several of your attempts to do so have relied on the fallacy of begging the question. But I shall assume that you are going to take care of that problem by clarify and further buttressing your supporst. I await it your reply with anticipation...
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    27 each day of the Lord found:

    Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
    It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

    Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
    cruel, with rage and burning anger-
    to make the earth a desolation
    and to destroy the sinners on it.

    La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
    as if [for] an appointed festival day;
    on the day of the Lord's anger
    no one escaped or survived.
    My enemy has destroyed
    those I nurtured and reared.

    Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
    and their gold will seem like something filthy.
    Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
    in the day of the Lord's wrath.
    They will not satisfy their appetites
    or fill their stomachs,
    for these were the stumbling blocks
    that brought about their iniquity.

    Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore
    the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle
    on the day of the Lord.

    Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
    on the day of the Lord's feast?

    Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

    Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
    sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
    Let all the residents of the land tremble,
    for the day of the Lord is coming;
    in fact, it is near-

    Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
    in the presence of His army.
    His camp is very large;
    Those who carry out His command are powerful.
    Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
    who can endure it?

    Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood
    before the great and awe inspiring day of the Lord comes.

    Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
    in the valley of decision!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    in the valley of decision.

    Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
    What will the day of the Lord be for you?
    It will be darkness and not light.

    Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
    be darkness rather than light,
    even gloom without any brightness in it?

    Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
    against all the nations.
    As you have done, so it will be done to you;
    what you deserve will return on your own head.

    Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
    for the day of the Lord is near.
    Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
    He has consecrated His guests.

    Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
    I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
    and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

    Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
    near and rapidly approaching.
    Listen, the day of the Lord-
    there the warrior's cry is bitter.

    Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
    will not be able to rescue them
    on the day of the Lord's wrath.
    The whole earth will be consumed
    by the fire of His jealousy.
    For He will make a complete,
    yes, a horrifying end
    of all the inhabitants of the earth.

    Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
    and the day passes like chaff,
    before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
    before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

    Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    who carry out what He commands.
    Seek righteousness, seek humility;
    perhaps you will be concealed
    on the day of the Lord's anger.

    Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided

    in your presence.

    Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and

    awesome day of the Lord comes.

    Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the

    great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

    1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his

    spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

    1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will

    come just like a thief in the night.

    2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a

    message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

    2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the

    heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and

    the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.

    3 each day of Christ found:

    Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it

    on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and

    blameless in the day of Christ,

    Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of

    Christ
    that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.

    3 each day of God found:

    Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
    flowing away on the day of God's anger.

    2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of

    God
    , because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements

    will melt with the heat.

    Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the

    kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God,

    the Almighty.

    7 each day of judgment found:

    Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
    on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

    Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the

    day of judgment than for you.

    Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the

    day of judgment than for you."

    Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to

    account for every careless word they speak.

    2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep

    the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

    2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store

    for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in

    the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Dwmoeller1: //;Your basic argument is sound (ie. the structure
    of the argument means that IF the premises are true,
    then the conclusion must be true). The problem is that
    you haven't demonstrated that the key premise is true.//

    I will not demonstrate that the key premise is true.
    It is up to the Holy Spirit to convince you that
    the key premise is true.

    In 1969-1976 I was qualified in the state of Oklahoma to
    teach logic to 15-year-olds. So I know logic.
    So I say with authority: //I can not demonstrate that
    the key premise is true. So I won't even try.

    However, what the Bible says is clear.
    All one has to do is read it.

    Caveat: If the Holy Spirit leads you to be a
    post-trib pre-mill futurist - then be the best post-trib
    pre-mill futurist you can be.
    For 53 years I've been a pretrib pre-mill futurist
    and I suspect I'll either die a pretrib pre-mill futurist
    or get raptured in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    a pretrib pre-mill futurist. (BTW, even a-mills & preterists will get
    to go when the Lord comes.)
     

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