Pre-trib rapture

Amen, Brother Skypair -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

I'm another Ed (Two Eds are maybe better than one, as t'other one said once?) but I'll offer a suggestion on how one 'divides' Matt. 24, into four 'splits' from the Scripture. We'll use four words/phrases found there, four "t"s actually. Remember the disciples asked Jesus three questions, which I will also cite (my emphases).

I underlined the (or at least most of the) "then(s)" and some "and(s)" in the passage to show the progression that the passage entails. Jesus does not, certainly, give all-encompassing details of all future events, but does give a basic outline, IMO. FTR, I see verses 30 and 31 as continuing the progression, after the tribulation.

In v. 32 and 33, however, Jesus injects an object lesson with a parable, vs. continuing the progression, so far. He is asking, in effect, "Do you get it? Here is how you can know."

Ed

 

Dwmoeller1: //Again, how do you determine that the split occurs at this place contextually?//

If context means Matthew 24:4-44 then the context doesn't
indicate a split there.

If context means Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21,
then I've answered the question.

Whomever: //You are NOT Israel! Israel has 4 unconditional covenants with God (Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, New) by which promised on His own Name that He would revive physically and spiritually and give them the land of Israel and rule over the world.

Dwmoeller1: //Since its not really the subject, I shall
merely refer you to Rom 9:6-8, and gal 3:29.//

Ah, but it is the subject. God's plan to redeem all the Jews
involves both the Church and the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of it as well as the 7-year-Tribulation period.

Speaking of Romans 9:6-8, here it is in the KJV1769 Edition:
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel which are of Israel:
7 Neither because they are the seed of Abraham
are they all children: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God: but the children
of the promise are counted for the seed.

I'll get back with you all on the pretribulation chapter of Romans:
Romans 11 -- well God willin' and if the crick don't rise.

 

Thank you, Ed. I wasn't ignoring your post earlier either -- it was, rather, my inspiration.

To me, Calvinism and anti-dispensationalism go hand-in-hand. I'm betting I don't get an answer as to what the future of Israel is out of dw. If he had to admit it, he'd also have to look for a pretrib rapture.

skypair

 

Dwmoeller1 to EdSutton: //But now I am curious,
what 'side' is your argument intended to support?//

Sutton's Doctrine of Eschatology.

Did anybody ever remind us of the Baptist Distinctives?

Here they are
(picked up somewhere else, I didn't make it up):

* Biblical authority
* Autonomy of the local church
* Priesthood of all believers
* Two ordinances (baptism and communion)
* Individual soul liberty
* Separation of Church and State
* Two offices of the church (pastor and deacon)

The two bolded bolded distinctives mean in this matter:
Each Baptist individual who is competent has to figure
out their own eschatology.

I like the guy who says he is a 'Pan-millinnialist' --
Jesus is in charge and the future will pan out just as
God intended.

 

Dwmoeller1: //First of all, 'kai' is not a polysendton.
A polysendton is the repeated use
of a conjunction like 'kai' in close succession
(specifically, where some might be omitted).//

That is one definition of polysyndton, but not the only
definition of 'polysyndton'.

I used to wonder why in Chapter one of Genesis nerarly every
verse started with 'And'. My 4th grade teacher taught me
"Never start a sentence with 'and'."

IMHO in the Greek of Matthew 24 'and' is used frequently
instead of (as in Microsoft) Bullets.

Dwmoeller1:

Three strikes and you are out.

Yep, the difference between post-trib and pre-trib
hinges on the meaning of 'and' in Matthew 24:31.

The difference between post-trib and pre-trib
hinges on the meaning of 'and' in 2 Thess 2:1

The difference between post-trib and pre-trib
hinges on the meaning of '&' in Revelation 20:4

The difference between Aminianistic hope on the one hand
and Calvinistic dispar on the other hand depends
on what 'and' means.

I find it totally amasing that most post-tribs
are anti-OSAS and most pre-tribs are pro-OSAS??

OSAS = once saved, always saved, AKA: security
of the believer, AKA: preservation of the saints

 

Dwmoeller1: //Where in Scripture is the rapture referred to as a mystery?//

Ah, I have that in my yet unposted 'Mysteries of the Faith'
prove pre-trib:

----------------------
...
3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be
the pretrib rapture/resurrection
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
not the post-trib rapture/resurrection,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints, maybe a couple of
thousand..
...
----------------------

 

Not particularly intending to support any "side", per se, just showing the fairly obvious divisions in the chapter we are discussing.

That is not a quote, nevertheless you are kidding, right? Read the verse without any pre-conceived agenda, and the next verse, where Jesus says -

Just as you know that summer is approaching when the fig tree sprouts, you will know that Jesus is Coming © "when you see all these things". What things? Obviously the things he has just been taklking about. And when this occurs, it is very near, "even at the doors!"

Ed

 

look at post #62 on this page:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=670602

.

See also post #63:

--------------------
Regarding "day" in 2 Peter 3:10.

in my dictionary:
"7. a time considered as
propitious or opportune"

So i believe the day of the Lord
to be the appropriate time that
our blessed Lord and Savior,
Messiah Jesus will once again
interfere in the affairs of mankind.

In the early 60s (i was 21 so an adult
in 1964) Russia and the USA finaly had
enough nuclear weapons to kill all
humans on earth and possibly all life
on earth. Someone surely needs to
interfere in the affairs of humankind.

Because Revelation 19-20 gives
a true time-line for this, we
see that "Day of the Lord" must
exceed 1,000 years.

So it does not surprise me when i
find the "day the Lord comes" is
seven years long.

BTW there is also an 8-hour work day.
There is a 24-hour day at one place
on the earth. There is a 48-hour
day (the length of a day at all points
on the earth). I've not seen the
48-hour day mentioned in any dictionary.

 

Webster defines polysyndeton as "using many conjunctions". As there are over 40 used in Matt. 24:1-35, I'd say that fits that bill, wouldn't you?

Ed

 

polysyndton


dwmoeller1: //Like I keep saying: What does Scripture *SAY*.
In this pasage it says that the transformation is a mystery,
it does not say that the rapture (or its timing) is a mystery.//

I appologize that God didn't choose to put in
a verse built to your specifications.

dwmoeller1: //So I ask again: What passage speaks
of the rapture as being a mystery?//

The two passages I took taken together.
That English grammar which is largely based on Latin grammar, not greek. Syntax and grammar in the greek doesn't follow those rules. Don't apply English rules to greek. Now, refer me to source which says that this is unusual or 'incorrect' grammar in the greek and I will consider your reasoning more carefully.

1. I wasn't trying to show 'incorrect' grammar.

2. Tee hee. Look, look, look - The Latin follows the Greek Grammar:
latin 'et' = English 'and'


Matthew 24:3-44 (The Latin Vulgate )

3 sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto dicentes dic nobis quando haec erunt et quod signum adventus tui et consummationis saeculi

24:4
et respondens Iesus dixit eis videte ne quis vos seducat

24:5
multi enim venient in nomine meo dicentes ego sum Christus et multos seducent

24:6
audituri autem estis proelia et opiniones proeliorum videte ne turbemini oportet enim haec fieri sed nondum est finis

24:7
consurget enim gens in gentem et regnum in regnum et erunt pestilentiae et fames et terraemotus per loca

24:8
haec autem omnia initia sunt dolorum

24:9
tunc tradent vos in tribulationem et occident vos et eritis odio omnibus gentibus propter nomen meum

24:10
et tunc scandalizabuntur multi et invicem tradent et odio habebunt invicem

24:11
et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos

24:12
et quoniam abundabit iniquitas refrigescet caritas multorum

24:13
qui autem permanserit usque in finem hic salvus erit

24:14
et praedicabitur hoc evangelium regni in universo orbe in testimonium omnibus gentibus et tunc veniet consummatio

24:15
cum ergo videritis abominationem desolationis quae dicta est a Danihelo propheta stantem in loco sancto qui legit intellegat

24:16
tunc qui in Iudaea sunt fugiant ad montes

24:17
et qui in tecto non descendat tollere aliquid de domo sua

24:18
et qui in agro non revertatur tollere tunicam suam

24:19
vae autem praegnatibus et nutrientibus in illis diebus

24:20
orate autem ut non fiat fuga vestra hieme vel sabbato

24:21
erit enim tunc tribulatio magna qualis non fuit ab initio mundi usque modo neque fiet

24:22
et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi non fieret salva omnis caro sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi

24:23
tunc si quis vobis dixerit ecce hic Christus aut illic nolite credere

24:24
surgent enim pseudochristi et pseudoprophetae et dabunt signa magna et prodigia ita ut in errorem inducantur si fieri potest etiam electi

24:25
ecce praedixi vobis

24:26
si ergo dixerint vobis ecce in deserto est nolite exire ecce in penetrabilibus nolite credere

24:27
sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et adventus Filii hominis

24:28
ubicumque fuerit corpus illuc congregabuntur aquilae

24:29
statim autem post tribulationem dierum illorum sol obscurabitur et luna non dabit lumen suum et stellae cadent de caelo et virtutes caelorum commovebuntur

24:30
et tunc parebit signum Filii hominis in caelo et tunc plangent omnes tribus terrae et videbunt Filium hominis venientem in nubibus caeli cum virtute multa et maiestate

24:31
et mittet angelos suos cum tuba et voce magna et congregabunt electos eius a quattuor ventis a summis caelorum usque ad terminos eorum

24:32
ab arbore autem fici discite parabolam cum iam ramus eius tener fuerit et folia nata scitis quia prope est aestas

24:33
ita et vos cum videritis haec omnia scitote quia prope est in ianuis

24:34
amen dico vobis quia non praeteribit haec generatio donec omnia haec fiant

24:35
caelum et terra transibunt verba vero mea non praeteribunt

24:36
de die autem illa et hora nemo scit neque angeli caelorum nisi Pater solus

24:37
sicut autem in diebus Noe ita erit et adventus Filii hominis

24:38
sicut enim erant in diebus ante diluvium comedentes et bibentes nubentes et nuptum tradentes usque ad eum diem quo introivit in arcam Noe

24:39
et non cognoverunt donec venit diluvium et tulit omnes ita erit et adventus Filii hominis

24:40
tunc duo erunt in agro unus adsumetur et unus relinquetur

24:41
duae molentes in mola una adsumetur et una relinquetur

24:42
vigilate ergo quia nescitis qua hora Dominus vester venturus sit

24:43
illud autem scitote quoniam si sciret pater familias qua hora fur venturus esset vigilaret utique et non sineret perfodiri domum suam

24:44
ideoque et vos estote parati quia qua nescitis hora Filius hominis venturus est