PRE-TRIB

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tamborine lady, Oct 26, 2003.

  1. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    [​IMG] O.K. I have one quick question:

    What does the following scripture mean?

    2 Thes 2-3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    :confused: [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Tamborine Lady
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins. Then later comes the Day of Christ
    when Jesus comes to destroy the antichrist.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Paul is telling the Thessalonians that before Jesus Christ returns at the end of time, there will be a final trial for the Church that will shake the faith of many believers. This persecution that accompanies the Church's pilgrimmage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

    At present, the devil is being restrained (2 Thess 2:6) because we are currently in the Church Age - the Millenial Reign of Jesus Christ - as St. John says in Revelation 20:1ff.

    After this, the dragon (Satan, the ancient serpent) will be releavesed for a short time (Rv 10:3); this is the final tribulation that the Church will undergo as St. Paul tells the Thessalonians.
     
  4. Frank

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    II Thes. 2:2,3 represents a misunderstanding of the return of Christ. These brethren had stopped working. They had changed there everyday lives in expectation of Christ's immediate return( I Thes. 3:10-12). Furthermore, Paul adresses the issue of the judgment in Chapter 4. He affirms the writings of II Pet. 3:10 that the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night (I Thes. 5:1,2). In II Thes. 1:6-9 those who are enemies of the gospel are eternally lost for two reasons. They know not God. a refeerence to gentiles who worshipped idols and obeyed their own lusts (Roms. 1:21-32). They obey not the gospel of Christ. A reference to all who obey not the gospel of Christ both Jew and Gentile. Thessalonica was a Roman colony consisting of both Jews and Gentiles.
    The son of perdition would be all forces that oppose the gospel of Christ. Those who would teach falsely and draw disciples after themselves. II Tim. 4:1-4, I Tim. 1: 1-4, Acts 20:30. This apostasy began gradually at the end of the first century and has resulted in some 33,000 various doctrines and denominations. The Thessaloninas would have no knowledge of the events described by John the Revealtor as it had not been written at the time the letter to the Thessalonians had been penned.
     
  5. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    I'm sorry, but I do not understand ANY of that!

    Would somebody else care to give it a try???
     
  6. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones
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    If you Read 2 Thess 2:1-3 closely, the meaning will become apparent...

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(emphasis mine)

    In verse 3, it says "that day" will not come unless there is a falling away FIRST and the man of sin is revealed. What is "that day"? The Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord from verse 2.

    The event that signals the beginning of Day of the Lord is the rapture of the Church.

    So verse 3 read plainly says, the rapture shall not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed.

    Ed
     
  7. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones
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    There are attempts to intepret the words "falling away" in verse 3 as the rapture. The original greek does not support this.

    "Falling away" is translated from the greek word apostasia. It's the word from which we get the word apostasy. The word implies a forsaking or defection. There is no way link this to the rapture of the Church.

    Ed
     
  8. BobRyan

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    The "falling away" is "apostacy". It is the act of the one that is "supposed to remain" faithful -turning from truth. It is a prediction of massive apostacy in the church before the end of time. So if you find that history reveals doctrinal error, the incorporation of the practices of paganism, and the torture and slaughter of the saints - being done by what is supposed to be "the Christian Church" (of the dark ages for example) - you may "choose" to notice a connection or to ignore it (as some do today).

    It is "not" - as some have hoped - a falling away of the wicked from being merely rebellious - to being more wicked. Nor is it a "falling up to heaven" of the saints.

    The chapter clearly speaks of the "appearing" of Christ and our being gathered together to Him. It shows that this apostacy AND the man of sin predicted must all happen "before that event". Paul did not give them a picture of the return of Christ that would indicate that it "could happen before these events" take place.

    Paul gives them no indication that this has already happened and that the return of Christ - "His Appearing and our gathering together to Him" could be at any second.


    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 27, 2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Since the return of Christ seen in Rev 19 has not happened yet. (Obviously).

    The 1000 year period (really - 1000 years)following the return of Christ and the "first resurrection" (the resurrection of ALL saints) - has not started.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    [​IMG]

    Ed,
    That was a good explanation. That I understand.

    So does that mean we will know who the antichrist is before the "rapture" occurs? [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Tam
     
  11. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones
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    Yes, everyone will know who the man of sin is.

    But there is another problem... He will not be the only antichrist. Jesus said that many will come in His name saying "I am Christ" (Matt 24:5). Likewise the Apostle John wrote of "many antichrists" (1 John 2:18).

    So many antichrists will appear but there will only be one known as the man of sin.

    The man of sin will be among several internationally known "Christ-like" figures. He will first appear as a man of peace. But due to the other antichrists and due to much doctrinal error and confusion (some of which you see here), it may not be easy to identify him. As a result, many will be decevied.

    Ed
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Carson Weber,

    If I am reading you correctly, you were right until you got the your last paragraph. You said, 'After this, the dragon (Satan, the ancient serpent) will be releavesed for a
    short time (Rv 10:3); this is the final tribulation that the Church will undergo
    as St. Paul tells the Thessalonians.

    First the quote is from Revelation 20:3. Secondly, the eschatological view is first the rapture, then Satan is bound at the beginning of the thousand years vs. 2c, then the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, and then Satan is released 'a little season.' vs. 3. The release of Satan/that old serpent/Devil will take place just before the Second Coming of Christ noted in Revelation 19:11.

    The church is taken home to Heaven in I Thessalonians 4:17 and the church is not mentioned again after this mighty Divine move of God on our behalf.

    Please, notice that God speaking though the beloved disciple did not say in Revelation 7:14 'The church are they which are taken out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' This group are not clumped into the church saints grouping. They are the unique group called, by theologians, the The Great Tribulation saints.

    The first part of Carson Weber's post reads, 'Paul is telling the Thessalonians that before Jesus Christ returns at the end of time, there will be a final trial for the Church that will shake the faith of many believers. This persecution that accompanies the Church's pilgrimmage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception
    offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy
    from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a
    pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his
    Messiah come in the flesh.

    At present, the devil is being restrained (2 Thess 2:6) because we are
    currently in the Church Age - the Millenial Reign of Jesus Christ - as St. John
    says in Revelation 20:1ff.
     
  13. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    To Ed Jones,

    [​IMG]
    I have a little different interpetation of Matt 25-5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    I think what Jesus is saying is that many will come, saying, "Jesus is the Christ" and will deceive many. Because you know the Big Main anti-christ is not going on T.V. and say Hi, I'm the anti-christ!

    Neither are the wolves in sheeps clothing. So we may be entertaining deceivers unaware unless we are leading a "spirit led life"

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Tam
     
  14. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones
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    I strongly agree. Only through prayer and asking God to open our understanding of the Scriptures can we see through the various deceptions that are and will be present.


    Although he won't say "I'm the anti-christ", he won't acknowledge Jesus as the Christ either. Read 1 John 2:22...

    1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    Ed
     
  15. Frank

    Frank
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    TamborineLady:
    Let me make it concise. The rapture and reign of Christ on the physical earth is a false teaching as per ( II Pet.3:10,11, Hebrews 9:27,28, John 6: 39,40,58;5:28,29 II Tim. 4;1, Rev. 1:7, Col. 1:12,13, Mat. 8:12 ). The term rapture is not a biblical term. It is absent from the pages of inspiration. The physical reign of Christ upon the earth is also absent from scripture. It is most difficult to understand a doctrine that changes almost as often as the seasons. Just pick a version. You mkae select the pretrib, postrib, or various other forms of the premillennial version. You may also pick the author you like best. Lahaye, Jenkins etc.
     
  16. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Everything in Matthew 24:5-35 has already happened, except verse 27. Matthew 24:36 and following has yet to occur.

    Jesus foretold the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in Matthew 24:1-2, and his disciples asked him two questions:

    1. When will this (i.e., the destruction of the Temple) happen?
    2. What sign will there be of your coming and of the end of the age?

    Matthew places the two corresponding answers together as does Mark (Mk 13:1-31 & Mk 13:32-37), but Luke separates them (Lk 21:5-33 & Lk 17:22-37).

    The 8 signs and 5 amplifications that Jesus gives in Matthew's recording of the Olivet discourse have already occurred in history, and they can be confirmed by historical sources (e.g. Josephus and Tacitus). This corresponds with what Jesus said about these events: "Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place" (Matthew 24:34).

    However, concerning the coming of Jesus at the end of the age (the answer to the second question), "no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone" (Matthew 24:36). No signs or amplifications can be given for Christ's second coming and the end of the age because not even the Son knows when it will happen. But, for the destruction of the Temple, signs have been given, and both those signs as well as the destruction of the Temple have occurred between 64 and 70 A.D.

    I'll wait for the standard objection to what I've presented before I continue with my explanation. [​IMG]
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Yes -

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Sorta -

    They will also say "I am the Christ" - as in I have taken Christ's place on earth.

    And ultimately one will come - as some have already -- saying I AM Christ.

    You are correct - that they do not come saying "I am anti-Christ".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG] So, we're raptured out and then the ANTI-CHRIST rules for 3 and 1/2 years and then it gets very bad for 3and 1/2 more and then the trib is over. Then begins the 1000 year mil.

    Is that the way it goes?

    Tam,

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    Tam,

    You said, ' So, we're raptured out and then the ANTI-CHRIST rules for 3 and 1/2
    years and then it gets very bad for 3and 1/2 more and then the trib is over.
    Then begins the 1000 year mil.

    Ray is saying, 'Right, except that between the Great Tribulation and the Millennimum will be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ as noted in Revelation 19:11.
     

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