Pre-tribulation rapture

Why Prophecy?
-by Ed Edwards

Proposition:
The Bible purpose of Eschatology is
to make us better servants of God.

KJV = King James Version

2 Peter 3:9-12 (KJV1611 Edition):
The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise
(as some men count slacknesse) but is long-suffring
to vs-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord wil come
as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise,
and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate,
the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolued,
What maner of persons ought ye
to be in all holy conuersation, and godlinesse,
12 Looking for and hasting vnto
the comming of the day of God,
wherein the heauens being on fire shalbe dissolued,
and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat*?

*Versions note:
The question mark (?) is from the KJV1769 Edition.
Seems somebody making the KJV1611 Edition
forgot that a question was
being asked "What maner of persons ought ye
to be in all holy conuersation, and godlinesse?"
and forgot to put the question mark (?) at the end
of the complete sentence [and put a period (.) instead]

Anyway, the question is retorical and enjoins us
to have a holy conversation (walk, life style, etc)
and to have godlilness (being like God) or holiness.
The world will be destroyed by God at the appropriate
time, all our works will be burnt in the fire.
By contrast (elsewhere in the Bible) the words of
Messiah Jesus will live on FOREVER.

BTW, the 'hasting' of His Coming can mean:
1. making His Coming happen faster
or
2. looking forward it His Coming
Some modern version clarify that #2 is the one
intended here (and specified by the Greek)

2 Peter 3:13-14
Neuerthelesse wee, according to his promise,
looke for new heauens, and a new earth,
wherein dwelleth righteousnesse.
14 Wherefore (beloued) seeing that
ye looke for such things, be diligent that
ye may be found of him in peace, without spot,
and blamelesse.

Proposition shown from the Bible:
The Bible purpose of Eschatology is
to make we Servants of God better servants of God.

\o/ Glory to Hashem! \o/
\o/ Praise Jesus! \o/

 

Many people say that Believers should not read Revelation as it may cause the misunderstanding, but the Revelation says this:
REv
1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

 

Ed,

2 Peter 3:9-13 is clearly speaking of second coming that we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, that would be the next age to come - eternality.

No way that you shall be able to prove a verse anywhere in the Bible telling us there will be two future comings.

Bible teaches us, Christ shall come again once.

When after Christ ascended back to heaven, as disciples saw him went up into heaven. The two angels appeared them, and they told them, the same manner when Christ was caught up, so also shall COME again. It speaks of second advent- once event, not twice events.

Rev. 1:7 and Matt. 24:30 are clear telling us, Christ shall come again once, everyone eye shall see His coming. His coming is not a secert, it will be visibly. He shall come again at once, not twice like as 'yo-yo's'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Indeed that is devastating to the entire Pre-trib rapture story.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed - John 14:1-3 makes it clear there is only ONE event that is the promised return - "coming" of Christ.

and 1Peter 1 tells us to fix our hope COMPLETELY on that one event!

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are missing the answer already given -

In 1Thess 5 the second coming is not the focus - rather it is the wrath of God that preceeds it. AND YES I do think that the event highlighted in 1Thess 5 could be at "any moment".

For those in the days of Noah -- it was no surprise that AFTER seeing the clouds and hearing thunder come rolling that THEN it started to rain and AFTER it had rained for a few days the flood started to fill up the plains. By the time they got to actually drowning they had lived in the rains for days!

The SURPRISE was that the door of the ark closed and that THAT is when it was too late They did not realize their doom was already sealed at that point.

The event of 1Thess 5 is the SAME as the 2Cor 5:10 event -- we stand before the judgment seat of Christ at the Daniel 7 great judgment event that happens BEFORE the 2nd coming according to Dan 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Interresting question ---whats it referring to?
We can all quote scriptures that say GOD raised Jesus , BUT ,
Romans 8;11 (and others ) say Holy Spirit raised Jesus
John 2 ;19 -21, Jesus says that ---HE--- not the father , NOT the Spirit , but HE himself would raise HIMSELF truly the TRINITY rIsed Jesus from the dead----good arguement for J.W. s and trinitarians ,I think
in Christ
Angelfire

 

I want to hear the Eloquent and Profound Exegesis from the Believers of PTR ( Pre-Tribulation Rapture) and BTR( the Believers Total Resurrection at Once).

All the arguments and questions raised here, are based on PTR/BTR( Pre-Tribulation Rapture/Believers Total Resurrection at Once)

1. The Important and Outstanding Events until the End of the Earth according to PTR Believers
1) Rapture of the Church
2) Resurrection of the Believers
3) Judgment Seat of Christ
4) Second Coming of Jesus Christ ( Re 19)
5) New Millennium ( Re 20:6-9)
6) Resurrection of the Unbelievers ( Re 20:11-13)
7) Great Judgment at the White Throne ( Re 20:12-13, 15)
8) Death and Hades Cast into the Lake of Fire ( Re 20:14)
9) Unbelievers Cast into the Lake of Fire ( Re 20:15)

Why does the Bible keep silence about 1), 2), 3) if we read it from the viewpoint of PTR/BTR?

2. Other Events that appear on Revelation which are arguable to be contradicting the PTR/BTR

1) Where is the Resurrection of the believers while we can see the Resurrection of the Unbelievers, according to PTR/BTR?
Is the Resurrection of the Believers less important and therefore it is deleted in the Revelation?

2) Where is the Rapture of the Church mentioned in Revelation?
We read the Ascension of the 2 Witnesses in Re 11:11-13. Is the Rapture of the Whole church less important than 2 Persons?

3) Why is the Rapture of the Church omitted in Revelation while we read the story about the great multitude of the Believers who came out of the Tribulation in Re 7:9-17
Is the Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation less important than the Delivery of the Believers coming out of the Tribulation?

4) Re 7 tells us that a Great Multitude which nobody can count
came out of the Tribulation from all nations, kindreds, people, and tongues stood before the Throne and before the Lamb.

How could they be saved if the whole church was taken up by Rapture leaving no Believers on this earth?

Romans 10:14 tells us No salvation is possible without a preacher and 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is pleased to save the souls by the foolishness of preaching.

After the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ, there were thousands of Believers left behind, and more than 500 people has seen Jesus after Resurrection ( 1 Cor 15:6), and 120 Believers gathered together to pray God until they received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

Nevertheless, it had taken several decades until they preached the Gospel in entire Roman Empire. How could the new believers be saved within a short time like 7 years while Anti-Christ wage the War against the saints ( Re 13:7) and people would not repent ( Re 9:20, 21, 16:9,11)?

A great multitude whose number nobody can count must be over a million because John counts the number of 144,000, even 12,000 for each tribe, in detail. The number could be tens of millions or over a hundred millions while the Beast wage War against the Saints, even the individual life is oppressed to worship the Beast and his Idol.

5) Why does the Bible keep silence about how the New Believers started to believer despite all the persecution and oppression?

Who can initiate the preaching since there is no believer left behind the Rapture? Without preacher, no one can hear the Gospel, and the Repentance which can lead to the salvation comes only by the Holy Spirit, and Romans 10:14 tells such hearing comes thru the preachers. Therefore the Holy Spirit will work thru the preachers. How can the first believer after the Rapture start to believe the Gospel without having any preacher?

6) If the Believers were all raptured, how could the Beast come up to fight the war against the Saints ( Re 13:7) ?

Normally, the style and the order of the Bible writing is that it explains the people if they appear for the first time. If the whole church was raptured, then Bible would have explained how the new believers started to exist. Where is such account and explanation about the Saints?

If the whole church was raptured, why does the Beast come up and wage the war against the Saints ( He may declare the War on Heretics) ?

7) Re 12:1-5 tells us the Man-child who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron and he was born and ascended up to the heaven. One can hardly deny this is Jesus Christ.

This means that the Revelation contains the story about the Birth and the Ascension of Jesus Christ. Then why are the details of the Rapture and Resurrection of the Believers missing?

8) Re 20:4-5 tells us the following.
Verse 4 John saw 3 groups
A) Judges
B) Martyrs
C) Anti-Beast Believers ( who struggled against the Anti-Christ, the Harlot)

Verse 5 says:
The rest of the dead lived not again ( are not resurrected) until a thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Questions:
Which group will the following believers belong to?

i) Robber at the Cross
ii) Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5
iii) A plain believer who believed in Jesus but lived a plain life and died a normal death in 17 century.

Will the Fornicator be the Judge?

Will the Robber at the Cross be counted as a Martyr because he was crucified despite his
repentance?

If anyone cannot answer those questions clearly, he or she must be quiet about such PTR.

 

Loose ends:

The Rapture/Resurrection of the Church is clearly shown by
the Believers who 'came out of the Tribulation'.
I already explained this before.
I 'came out of Vietnam' - I had half my education payed for by
Vietnam. I was never in Vietnam - I survived it.
The uncountable multitude are those OT Saints,
NT Saints (dead) and NT Saints (living) who were raptured/resurrected
in the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection. Amen!

But it is a good question, the only answer is PTR
(or I like to call it a PTR&R [pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection] )

 

Loose Ends:

i) Robber at the Cross
--- Group A: Judges

ii) Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5
--- Group A: Judges

iii) A plain believer who believed in Jesus but
lived a plain life and died a normal death in 17 century.
--- Group A: Judges

Unfortunately, there are only two groups:
A) Judges
B)Martyrs & Anti-Beast Believers

A) Judges
--- Those resurrected from the Church Age
and those who were raptured (both at the
PreTribulation Rapture/Ressurection /PTR&R/ )

B)Martyrs & Anti-Beast Believers
--- Those resurrected from the Tribulation
in the Post-Tribulation Ressurrection/Rapture

( I believe the Bible teaches a Post-Tribulation
Resurrection1/Rapture1. I do NOT
believe the Bible teaches a Post-Tribulation
Resurrection1/Rapture1 ONLY )

Two sets of definitions I see, I list the one I
use first:

A1. Rapture1 - like a Resurrection1 for living saints
A2. Resurrection1 - like a Rapture1 for dead saints

B1. Rapture2 - a pretribulation Rapture1/Resurrection1
B2. Resurrection2 - a post-tribulation Resurrection1/Rapture1

 

I must appud you as you at least attempted to answer the questions.
However, your answer is far short of convincing any believers.

1) You cannot say that you came out of Vietnam unless you had ever been there. I can say I came out of Saudi Arabian desert because I had lived in the desert for 2 years.

Re 7 :14 says they came out of GT. the preposition " ek" means ( mainly) " out of from inside" as we remember the Baptism of the Eunuch by Philip in Acts 8:38-39. This means that they came out of mid Tribulation or after the Tribulation. For your Info, I believe in the Partial Mid-Tribulation Rapture. So, PTR before the Tribulation is rejected here according to your own anlysis.

2) The words in Re 7 do not say any Rapture there. It can be by Rapture or by enduring or overcoming. If there is no specific words for the Unusual events, it is general understanding that the events could be the escape from the GT by normal overcoming or enduring, or Rescue by Jesus at the end of the Tribulation. Why doesn't Re say about the Rapture of millions of Believers while it explains in very detail about the Rapture of 2 witnesses, saying" come up hither" ( Re 11:12). It also explains how the Spirit of life could revived the 2 witnesses. Why does the Bible keep silence about much more multitude of Believers?
Bible describes even the Ascension of Jesus ( manchild) upto God ( Re 12:1-5). Why does it omit the story about how they are raptured?

 

If you read Re 20:4 in Greek, there are apparently 3 groups,
Anti-Beast Believers are different from the Martyrs and it states (" hoitines...) those who... Read Greek Text.

1) Do you believe that the Anti-Beast Believers who struggled against the Beast and Harlot and over come them should be judged by the Fornicator or by the Robber at the Cross?

2) Where is the satement about the Resurrection of Believers?
Are they as clear as the Resurrection of Unbelievers in Re 20:11-15?
Is the Resurrection of the Believers less important than that of Unbelievers?

3) Do you believe Post Tribulation Rapture? What are the Rapture 1 and Rapture 2, and Resurrection 1, etc.?

It seems that your Eschatology is different from that of mainstream.

Please clarify.

 

Yes. 'In Jesus' -- the great leveler -- try
Jesus, you might like him.

However, I don't believe they will.
There will be rewards given at the
Judgement Seat of Christ -- including
judgement ability - to those who deserve
(in Christ) it. Obviously not to barely-made-it
fornicators & the robber/terrorist at the Cross.

 

Anti-Beast Believers are saved by the Blood of Jesus as well.

In your theology the barely saved believers are to judge the great believers of faith until the Judgment Seat of Christ.

When is the Judgment Seat of Christ?

 

In heaven, during the Tribulation Period on Earth.

You can see it right after the Pretribulation-Rapture
in Revelation Chapter 7.

 

Can you show the Rapture and the Resurrection as clear as the followings?

1) RE 11:
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven

2) Re 12:
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


3) Re 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Do you see the clear accounts for the Rapture in 1) and 2) then Resurrection in 3)?

Where are the clear picture of the Rapture which you are so much convinced about?

Where is the Resurrection of the Believers?

Are they less important than the above mentioned events?

 

Again - I have told you all I know.
If you will study AND NOT DOUBT what I
said, you will see a consistant pattern.,

The reason you aren't getting what I got is that
you DON'T SEE (understand, believe) what I'm talking about.

I did NOT get my eschatology from a millionare
LaHaye. I got it from the scripure.

Please define what 'rapture' is.
Please define what 'resurrection' is.
Thankyou.

 

Eliyahu:
//I have heard and read all the theories of PTR and found they are absolutely groundless, and they do not know how to interpret the Revelation.//

Please read mine before discarding it.\
Thank you.

I thought I posted most of my eschatology
already in this thread. I'm checking it