Predestination, what did you do to be predestined for Heaven?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by The_Narrow_Road, Jan 30, 2003.

  1. The_Narrow_Road

    The_Narrow_Road
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    This question is for the Calvinists. First, I am not an Arminian. I just want a better understanding of the Calvinist view.

    Question:

    What did you do to be predestined for Salvation/Heaven?

    What did Abel do?

    What did Abraham do?

    What did Noah do?

    What did Cain do to be predestined for hell?

    What did Satan do to be predestined for hell?
     
  2. 4study

    4study
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not Arminian or Calvinist either but I'm sure the response to all you're questions would be, "they did nothiing".
     
  3. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Question:

    What did you do to be predestined for Salvation/Heaven?

    Nothing, it is by grace.

    What did Abel do?

    Nothing, it is by grace.

    What did Abraham do?

    Nothing, it is by grace.

    What did Noah do?

    Nothing, it is by grace.

    What did Cain do to be predestined for hell?

    Cain was a sinner, as a sinner he is going to hell. God did nothing but let him do exactly what Cain wanted. It was Abels will he violated.

    What did Satan do to be predestined for hell?

    Satan rebelled against God and tried to assume the position of God.
     
  4. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it is funny that people see salvation as something that you get when you "DO" something. It is not from works it is grace. That means unmerrited favor... Does anyone else see that as a problem?
     
  5. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    See how many people can fing irony here.

    What did you "DO" to be "PREDESTINED" for heaven?
     
  6. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Your problem is not with our teachings, it is with the word of God. If Paul and Silas taught YOUR gospel, perhaps he should have answered, "You must first be among the elect, then you will not be able to resist the grace of of God. And if you are among the elect, unable to resist the grace of God, you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, 100% guaranteed, as evidence that are one of the elect saved by the irresistible grace of God." Paul did not say any mess like that.

    Good News/Bad News?

    The good news is that if you are in the world and a sinner, Jesus said He came to take away the sin of the world. The bad news is that perhaps He did not have your sin in mind.

    The good news is that if you are in the world, Jesus came to be the savior of the world. The bad news is that you may not be one of those in the world He came to save.

    The good news is that if you are unjust, Jesus died for the unjust. The bad news is that you might not be one of the unjust He died for.

    (The Five Points of Calvinism, George L. Bryson)

    Ephesians 1 does not teach unconditional election. God chose us "in Christ." Election must be comprehended "in Christ." The choice was in Him. If we are then in Him, we are chosen. Romans 16:13, "Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine." Rufus was chosen "in the Lord." It is only by being in Him that anyone is chosen. Ephesians 1 does not say that God chose us "to be in Him," as if He fatalisically determined the outcome of redemption.

    "IN WHOM we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Ephesians 1:7)

    There is no redemption out of Christ, therefore, no election or "chosen" out of Christ.

    "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" (Ephesians 1:9)

    It was purposed "in Christ."

    "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

    Predestination also is "in Christ."

    "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Ephesians 1:13)

    We are sealed "in Him." Perhaps you could supply biblical evidence of someone being sealed who is not "in Christ." If you cannot, then it is conclusive that no one is chosen without first being in Christ.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (Ephesians 1:3)

    We were blessed "in Christ."

    [ January 30, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    No our problem is with your teachings because what you are teaching is not the word of God. Our doctrine is the doctrine that Paul taught. When he said, Believe on that Lord Jesus Christ, he was teaching what Scripture teaches about salvation and it is that same gospel we preach.

    You should know that the difference between us and you is not in the issue of the necessity of belief for salvation. The issue is why does a person believe. Get with the program and deal with things that are actual differences. Do not make stuff up.

    Having just preached from Ephesians 1, I can say with certainty that your little explanation here is unequivocally not what the text says. We were chosen in Christ and receive our blessings in Christ. But the point is that we were chosen. The text does not say that we were chosen, predestined, etc because we are in Christ. That is adding to the text. The text says we were chosen in Christ. That is far different. See how adding just a little bit to Scripture caused you to come to a wrong conclusion?

    [ January 30, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  8. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Indpndntbptst,

    I have to compliment you... You sure can screw up text in the bible. I have never seen anyone better. Of course saved people have beleived in the Lord Jesus Christ. I never said you must be elect before you believe. I simply say that only the elect will believe. There is a great difference. I still believe that your problem with reformed doctrine is that you cannot get over your preconceived notions about calvinism. You really believe you know what we believe, yet you always seem to be wrong.

    Let me ask you a question. You stated that you must beleive in the Lord Jesus to be saved. And I agree. Only I believe it is a responce and not me stepping towards God for Him to accept me. How are we to do that? If Romans 3 says (among other places) that no man can seek God. If we are unable to seek God, how can we come to him?

    Maybe Paul and Silas was stating that there is nothing you must "DO" but how people are saved. Billy Sunday,told a story of a guy who came to his revival while he was taking down his tent. The guy asked "what must I do to be saved?" Billy turned to the guy and said, "you're too late." to the guys alarm, he asked again, "Please tell me what I must do to be saved?" Mr Sunday replied again, "you're too late, everything you need for salvation has already been done for you on the cross."

    My problem is not with scripture, (I have given plenty you still haven't answered too) my problem is people who don't read all of it.
     
  9. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Was Billy Sunday a Calvinist? I did not think he was, but maybe I am wrong. Anyway, what Billy Sunday said does not account for much when we are studying the Scriptures. Besides, the answer Billy Sunday gave was not the answer given by Paul. You clearly posted that salvation is not given because of something we do. That, of course, is in contradiction to Acts 16:30, 31. I do not disagree that Jesus Christ accomplished everything necessary for salvation at Calvary. However, like the serpent who was lifted up in the wilderness, only those who looked at the serpent lived. Likewise, only those who look to Jesus in faith and repentance will be saved.

    Where does Ephesians teach that we were chosen "to be in Him?" It does not teach that. Rather, it teaches that we were chosen "in Him." The choice of God is "in Him." Redemption is "in Him." The purpose of God is "in Him." The sealing of the Holy Ghost is "in Him." II Timothy 1:9, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," God never blesses man apart from Christ because the purpose of God is in Christ. He is the source of all spiritual blessings by which we are blessed. Romans 2:4-5, "Or despisest THOU the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth THEE to repentance? But after THY hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto THYSELF wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" Paul is addressing the same individual throughout this text. The same one to whom God demonstrates the riches of His goodness, the same one to whom God demonstrates His forbearance and lungsuffering, is said to be resisting God. The same "thou" and "thee" in verse four, is the same "thy" and "thyself" in verse five. Irresistible grace?

    [ January 30, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: IndpndntBptst ]
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    What did you do to be predestined for Salvation/Heaven?

    Nada.

    What did Abel do?

    Zip.

    What did Abraham do?

    Zilch.

    What did Noah do?

    Diddly.

    What did Cain do to be predestined for hell?

    Squat.

    What did Satan do to be predestined for hell?

    Goose-egg.


    Now let me ask you a question: Assuming you even have the above destinies correct (not necessarily a valid assumption), how is it possible for someone to do something before one is created or born? So assuming predestination means "destiny determined before one is created/born", your questions make no sense.
     
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    How does Jesus answer this same exact question?

    This is in RED LETTERS so everyone pay attention:

    The disciples asked Jesus, "Then who can be saved?"

    Jesus said, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

    Don't base your theology on historical narratives. Acts and even this passage in Matt. 19 are historical accounts and not intending to teach us in depth doctrine. We must look at the whole counsel of God's word. I think Pipers quote I got from the other post ends this debate:

    [ January 30, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
     
  12. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nobody ever stated that man does everything by himself. Your are putting words into my mouth. In other words, Paul and Silas did not tell the jailor the truth? After all, it is just a historical narrative. I will use that defense next time a Calvinist uses Acts 13:48 to teach election. [​IMG]
     
  13. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    If that is all the calvinist has, then yes use that argument. Unfortunatly we have given you a multitude of scripture. All scripture lines up. If you say that one thing in Acts does not line up with what Jesus said, then your saying that the bible contradicts itself. I say you misinterpret that verse. [​IMG]
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    If anyone is putting words into anyones mouth it is you. I never said that you said "man does everything by himself." I also was not infering that Paul and Silas did not speak the truth. And I don't base my thelogical beliefs on Acts 13:48. I just quoted scripture and you came up with all of that on your own. My point was that some historical text may seem to support Arminianism just as some historical texts may seem to support Calvinism, which is why we should use texts that are intending to teach doctrine, not solely historical narratives. Paul and Silas, from the Calvinistic perspective, is telling them what people will do if they are "enabled" by the father (Jn 6:44). They will believe. Faith is a fruit of the spirit is it not?

    You never say "that man does everything by himself" but you imply that man can believe without God's enabling which is why I quoted Matt. 19. "It's impossible with man." Belief is a work of God, not a work of man (Jn 6:29)

    Sam

    [ January 30, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
     
  15. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Samuel, you are so eliquent. You must be a good looking man. Wow, you wife is lucky. [​IMG]

    Amen, and Amen
     
  16. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, in the book of Galatians, most Bible versions render "faith" as "faithfulness." The Bible teaches in Galatians 3:2, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" We receive the Spirit by faith. Galatians 3:14 also states, "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." If we cannot believe unless we have the Spirit, how is it that we receive the Spirit by faith? I also believe John 6:44, that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. John 6:29 does not teach that God makes us have faith. The miracles, they were the work of God, that those who witnessed them, might believe. The New Testament confirms that the miracles served as a witness to the people. This, however, makes totally no sense in light of Calvinism, seeing that no man can believe.
     
  17. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    HELLO! Read the whole thing. No man can come to God on his own. We are not saying that man can never get with God, we are saying that it must be God that does it. Miricles were fore those who were observing to believe. That doesn't discredit what we said. Today, the elect are called by means of evangelism. God uses many means to draw the elect. That does not make total nonsence of that verse. Try again.
     
  18. IndpndntBptst

    IndpndntBptst
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why did you not answer the Scriptures that teach we receive the Spirit through faith???
     
  19. sturgman

    sturgman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Galatians 3:2, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

    Paul is addressing the doctrine of santification here, not justification. Read the whole passage. False teachers came in behind Paul and teach the cross was good, but you needed to add to that the law. Verse 3 "Are you so foolish, having begun by the spirit, are you now being perfected by the law? So faith is granted by God, "Faith comes from God" and Paul was stating that what God started with faith, are you to continue your walk differently than it was started?

    Galatians 3:14 also states, "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

    Again, Paul is addressing those who have faith, not who are being saved. He is addressing those CHRISTIANS who were being fooled to believe that they were still in bondage to the law. For starting in verse 15 he continues to speak of the purpose of the law.

    These scriptures do not prove that you must have faith before you get the spirit. It proves that those who began in faith (that God gives) must CONTINUE in faith.

    Now can you answer mine?
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    It doesn't say we receive the Spirit through faith. It says we receive the "promise of the Spirit through faith." What has the Spirit promised? Look at the context, he is speaking of the Law and the death of Christ. This verse is saying that we receive Christ through faith. But it must be understood within the whole counsel of God's word. You can't even say "Jesus is Lord" accept by the Spirit's power (1Cor 12:3) And faith is given by God (Rom. 12:3). Faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8).

    Keep trying.

    Sam

    [ January 31, 2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Samuel ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...