Predestined to what?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jun 2, 2006.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Why do some Baptist believe that certain individuals are predestined by God to believe in Christ and thus be saved when the Bible never says this. It says that believers ("us," "we, or "you") have been predestined to "be conformed to Christ's image" and "to be adopted as his sons." Both of which all believers still eagerly await.

    God has determined beforehand that all who believe in Christ will be "sealed by the Spirit, conformed to Christ's image, and adopted as his sons." Nothing is ever said about God determining beforehand who would believe in Christ.

    Why is this mistake so common?
     
  2. Rex77

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    -----------------------------------
    Why is this mistake so common?
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    Search me

    All men can be saved, but only those that believe are.

    Whosoever means all.

    1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
     
  3. doulous

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    Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    1. In verse 28 God called a people according to His purpose.
    2. The coordinating conjunction "For" is used in order to join the thought of verse 28 to verse 29.
    3. Those whom God "foreknew" in verse 29 are those who "are called according to His purpose" in verse 28.
    4. "Also" is used as a coordinating conjunction in verse 29, thereby joining together all the previous content into the next thought.
    5. Those whom God "foreknew" in verse 29 and those who are "called according to His purpose" earlier in verse 28 are now "predestined."
    6. In order to understand the difference between "foreknew" and "predestine" we need to define terms. "Foreknow" (foreknew) means to know beforehand. "Predestine" means to choose with a purpose. When you predestine something you are not only chosing it, you are chosing it unto a specific purpose. Therefore "predestine" is choice with a purpose.
    7. So in verse 29 He is chosing with a specific purpose those whom He previously has "called according to His purpose" in verse 28. See the connection?
    8. The purpose for which these individuals are predestined is to be "conformed to the image of His Son, that He (Christ) might be the first-born among many brethren." This means that Christ may have the pre-eminence. The question is, "how is one predestined to be conformed to the image of His son?"
    9. In order to be predestined a person must be "in Christ."
    10. Once again, a conjuction is used, the word "that."
    11. In order to predestine a person the Lord first "calls" them (verse 30.)
    12. Once called, He then justifies (declares righteous). This is the moment of salvation. In order for a person to fulfill this predetermined plan of God (to be conformed to the image of His Son), they must be born again.
    13. To prove that the work of justification is immutable, Paul writes that the individual is also glorified. This means that the predeterminant (to beconformed to the image of His Son) is so sure, the individual is already seen as glorified in the mind of God.
    Conclusion? This passage absolutely displays that God predestines individuals to eternal life.
     
    #3 doulous, Jun 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  4. av1611jim

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    doulos;
    I absolutely REJECT your conclusion. The passage you used to try and prove your point is also one of those which the Op referred to. The word used is a plural word meaning a group not an individual. That word is ''THEM'. Read it again.
    The conclusion is that ALL they whom God has saved are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.
    They are NOT predestinated to BE saved.On the contrary, once they are saved they are predestinated to be conform...etc.
    In other words;
    Once one responds to the call of God and yeilds to the Holy Spirit's call and repents (as God commands us) and calls upon the name of Jesus he is saved. Once he is saved, he begins the process of becoming conformed to the image of Christ ultimately climaxing in his entire sanctification and conformation in heaven.
    Admittedly this is a bit overly simplified; nevertheless I believe it to be Scripturally accurate.
     
  5. doulous

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    Reject it all you want. I stand by my exegesis.
     
  6. Hope of Glory

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    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    I wonder why Paul got it backwards in this verse?
     
  7. 2BHizown

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    election/predestination

    'Tis not that I did choose Thee,
    For Lord, that could not be;
    This heart would still refuse Thee,
    Hadst Thou not chosen me.

    Both are so biblically true! When we earnestly pray with an open heart God answers and shows us His truth. Its all there and its all throughout the whole bible.
    Acts 13:48.....As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    11Thess 2:13
    Ehp 1:4-5
    Rom 8:29,30
    Rom 9:6-26
    Man's very nature wants to have a say in things, feel he has some control over matters. But God is overall, both the creation and the management of His universe and all who live therein. (paraphrase Ps 24:1)
    There are so many excellent books that clarify and validate all of these points if/when one truly wants to know what God has said!
     
  8. pituophis

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    To be saved is to be adopted as sons...to be saved is to be conformed into His image. Acts 13:48...those appointed to eternal life...believed! Salvation is all of God. From the very beginning, before the foundation of the world, those who are of the elect, their names were recorded in the Lambs book of life.
     
  9. 4His_glory

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    I am an adopted son of God now, I am being conformed to Christ's image everyday! These are not future events.

    If God has predestined me to be an adopted Son, and the only way to become that adopted Son is Christ's salvation, then I am predestined to Salvation.

    Lets not forget Eph 1 also. We are told their that believers where chosen before the world even began. If God's choice of believers was made based on somthing they would do later in life (which the Scriptures do not teach) then it is not God's choice at all but rather becomes my choice since I am the one who ultimatly decides wether I will be saved or not. But my Bible tells me that as a fallen creature I will not nor can not save myself therefore it must be of God- and the begining of that process was His choice of me before the world even began.

    Why is the mistake so common?
     
  10. 4His_glory

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    Amen and amen.:thumbs: I don't know why so many people are so strongly opposed to the doctrine of election when it is so clear in the Scritpures and it brings great joy to the redeemed! Just thinking on the fact that God knew me before He even created the world and chose that I would know Him through salvation in Christ is a cause for great joy and a reason to explode into vibrant worship!
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Ephesians, chapter 1
    4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Depends on how you read the Scriptures doesn't it? Could it be what was chosen was "how we were to be after Salvation", and "how we were to be adopted," what do you think?



    Luke, chapter 18
    "35": And it came to pass, that as he was come nigh unto Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:

    "36": And hearing the multitude pass by, he asked what it meant.

    "37": And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.

    "38": And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

    "39": And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

    "40": And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

    "41": Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

    "42": And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

    "43": And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

    Did the man above do anything himself before he was made whole, what do you think?
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Jun 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  12. 2BHizown

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    opposition to God's word

    Oh yes, it is all of God! The ONLY reason you have any interest in learning of God is due to His first touching your heart and giving thtat to you! All glory and praise to HIm! Soli deo gloria!!
    One pastor said, "do you know what you so strongly object to these doctrines? Because, YOU want to be God and make the decisions rather that see that God rules His universe and all therein!"
    Some, even like myself heard the doctrines of "accepting Christ", "making a decision for Christ" and such from our early youth and then are shocked to learn the truth!!
    "Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me!" John5:39
    Do a real search! You'll find Him there!
    All that the Father gives me will come to me!John 6:37
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him.John 6:44
    John 6:61 Does this offend you?
    v65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    All I know is if you have been deceived and are really not one of the "elect", according to your belief then you don't have a chance, but according to what I believe the Scripture says then "if you will believe and repent of your sins then you too can go to Heaven."


    I am glad that call went a little farther out than you suggest! I did a real seach and hope it does not offend you what I found?

    Matthew, chapter
    "28": Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    John, chapter 7
    37": In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    Isaiah, chapter 45
    "22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.





    Now that is what I call a "just God".
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Jun 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  14. 2BHizown

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    It isnt a mistake, its scripture!
    " A careful study of the Bible would convince many people that it is a very different book than they assume it to be"
    L. Boettner, A Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.
    Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death. John Calvin
    Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, even the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was none of them.
    Eph.2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
    John10:25-29 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.John10:25-29
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    What was afore prepared is Jesus was going to die on the cross.

    My sheep hear my voice. I wonder if you heard His voice while you were still a wordly person?
     
  16. 2BHizown

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    Yes, I heard His voice but only AFTER He did a work of regeneration in my heart and created a great interest to seek Him, to learn of HIm, to follow Him and to most gratefully thank Him!
    I believe you are missing the real meat of those verses.:praying:
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    We all believe in a calling its just we believe as Jesus said "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. We all believe in the Spirit striving with us, its just we believe that His Spirit strives with all men.

    We also believe that which was prepared before hand is: the creature is made subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope.

    You see, all were the same and all had same choice.
    Time and chance has happened to all, according to God's Holy Word.
     
  18. 2BHizown

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    the chosen

    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who are thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    v21 Hathe not the potter over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
    v22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
    v23 And that he might make know the riches of his glory, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
    v24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who are thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Paul sought for the thorn to be removed also.
    v21 Hathe not the potter over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
    Sown in corruption raised in incorruption.
    v22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"
    From dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return.
    v23 And that he might make know the riches of his glory, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
    v24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
    And so He did make known the riches of His Glory and to all those that are called and who took heed for He Himself said, "if I be lifted up, I shall draw all men unto me."
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    humility

    Maybe it's because those who do think that to believe God has the absolute sovereign right to be merciful and compassionate to those whom He wants to be merciful and compassionate with makes one an arrogant, heretical, prideful infidel, while they are the true "Enlightened Ones" who understand God's mercy and compassion based on their response to Him.

    I take back the word 'maybe'.

    From the various discussions I've heard and participated in in the now defunct Calvinism-Arminianism board, that is exactly what most of those in the "other side" are saying.
     

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