predestnation vs free will

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BornagainBeliever, Nov 5, 2003.

  1. BornagainBeliever

    BornagainBeliever
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    Just wondering what your views are on this? If you are free will what scripture do you use to back up your belief? I'm a free will believer but don't really know what scripture to use to defend it.

    THanks,
    BB
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    There aren't any. There are many passages that are twisted and perverted to mean that, but in actuality, they don't.
     
  3. BornagainBeliever

    BornagainBeliever
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    question for the predestination believer:
    Do you believe there are people out there that want to be saved but can't cause God didn't choose them or would there be no desire to get saved from someone that wasn't chosen?

    THanks,
    BB
     
  4. Daniel David

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    Jesus said that any who come to him will receive life, freely. Our problem is that we don't want to come. He works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).
     
  5. BornagainBeliever

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    Yes, I agree with that, but you didn't answer my question.


    BB
     
  6. BornagainBeliever

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    Also why did Jesus die if we were already picked from the beginning of the world? THat doesn't make sense to me.

    1 tim 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to COME UNTO the knowledge of the truth.
    vs 6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL ,...

    Are these taken out of context? Sounds clear to me.
     
  7. npetreley

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    Actually there are various explanations as to how these verses are compatible with predestination and election.

    But rather than address those, I'd ask you to review those verses again and look for any mention of free will. There is none. If a verse had said, "Who will have all men to be saved, if they would only choose rightly by their own free will." then you'd have a solid case for free will. But there is no such verse. So you have to "assume" free will is implied by the verses.

    In sharp contrast, you have verses like this:

    Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

    Now THAT's clear and direct and requires no "implied meanings".
     
  8. russell55

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    Yes he did. He said that "any who come to him will receive life freely." So there are no "people out there that want to be saved but can't cause God didn't choose them."

    Then he said, "Our problem is that we don't want to come. He works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure" which tells you that there is no desire to be saved from someone in whom God is not working--whom God has not chosen.
     
  9. Tim too

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    Here is the main problem. The Bible clearly presents elements of both positions. We in our attempts to put God in an easy to understand theological box fill in the blanks with our finite logic.

    The Bible clearly shows that God set up the means of salvation. God calls us to that salvation. And it is God who enables us to receive that salvation.

    The Bible also clearly shows man to be responsible for his choice to receive or reject this salvation. If there is no choice, then there is no real responsibility and God cruelly punishes those who cannot choose otherwise.

    That doesn't square with the Bible presentation of a God of mercy, forgiveness, and love.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  10. Sularis

    Sularis
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    So Far what Tim Too said
     
  11. truthaboveall

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    Predestination sounds like a lot of hocus pocus. If it is true, then there is no need to evangelize, since all is predetermined anyway.
     
  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    STRAWMAN - STRAWMAN - STRAWMAN - STRAWMAN - STRAWMAN

    Whew!

    This is either a fabricated lie, or an ignorant statement. I believe it to be the latter.

    First, God has chosen the who of salvation.

    Second, God has chosen the "means" of salvation.

    God has determined to save all of his elect by the proclamation of the gospel. That is what Romans 10 is all about. Go on, reread it.

    Third, Arminians believe that the future is determined also. Some, just don't realize it. Arminianism holds that the future is set, they just believe man is sovereign over God.

    Finally, only open theism teaches that the future is open. However, no serious theologian holds to open theism. For that matter, no Christian does either. Open theism is idolatry and its advocates and proponents will be in hell.
     
  13. Me2

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    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

    God places man in a position where he is incapable of saving himself..
    That makes God 100% responsible for the outcome.

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    initial salvation begins with the impartation of Gods spirit into man. without Gods spirit in man. there cannot be any communication or relationship.

    simply containing Gods spirit within us makes us justified. even if we dont understand what has happened.(Rom 8:29-30)

    man comes to understand what happened to him in the process of sanctification. starting as a "babe in Christ".

    there he learns what God has done for him.

    there he can either accept or reject this knowledge. this method of transforming our mind.

    whether man accepts this knowlegde does not change his status of salvation. He will still contain the spirit within him and is justified. OSAS

    If "free will" is to be found anywhere in the bible. It is in a limited fashion within the process of sanctification. there man can either choose to receive the "carrot" or the "stick".
    they can choose to be either an obedient child or a disobedient child.
    they can choose to either live their lives under Gods will or their own will.

    Me2
     
  14. Tim too

    Tim too
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    God has set up a means of Salvation for man that requires faith and obedience on the part of man. It is interwoven throughout the whole Bible.

    How are you going to love a God who tells you to love others and the sends those others to Hell without any possibility for salvation? Your mother, child, wife, neighbor?

    The Bible presents God as sovereign, no doubt about it. Man is also responsible for his choices, in particular the choice to accept or reject salvation.

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18 NIV

    It is a coin with two sides. To say that either side of the coin is all there is to the coin is foolish.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  15. Me2

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    Tim Too,

    you've proven my point. John 3:18 is speaking of those already saved and containing the spirit within them. the focus is on "believing what happened to be true".

    its true what happened whether they believe it or not. they just will not get the opportunity to understand it.

    the truth of God will not be accepted because of their doublemindedness. they become confused on what is true and false.

    yet they are still initially saved. they are justified because of the existence of the spirit within them. although sanctification is renewing of their minds.
    it is an ongoing process. an ever increasing of knowledge. a process that requires the follower to have a humble heart and a will that agrees with God. not one that disagrees.

    Me2
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Note that John 3:18 only says that those who do not believe are already condemned. It doesn't say that you have to purposely not believe in order to be condemned.
     
  17. Tim too

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    So why is a person justified or condemned? Because they believe or don't believe.

    A person chooses to accept something as truth or reject it. Or did God just want us to argue about it forever while we are here, causing me to believe one thing and you another? :D

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  18. Daniel David

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    They are condemned because they are sinners. Unbelief is just one of many sins that a person will be judged for, it is not the sole basis of judgment.

    Now, belief is the means to transfer one from death to life.
     
  19. Me2

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    Tim too,

    can one be saved and justified (positionally),yet be under condemnation?

    If I am saved and have the spirit of God within me and Im not aware of its existence within me.

    can I be under condemnation?

    sure I can..Its called living against the will of God. I am choosing to live by my own will.

    1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?


    and If I keep this action up. soon dad will come after me, not with the carrot, but with the stick!

    OSAS
    Me2
     
  20. Me2

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    Daniel David,

    before we can accept Christ by "faith". we must be put under the schoolmaster of the law.

    we must recognize ourselves to fail at following the law, be condemned, agree that we deserve death and are in need of a savior.

    sound familiar?

    Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    this is taught us in sanctification. (heb 6:1)

    learning how to believe by faith is a gradual process.
    we must first learn how to become teachable

    all the while the spirit of Jesus is within us and we dont realize this fact.

    agree or disagree?

    Me2
     

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