Preterism and "This Generation"

The basic promise is the same; but it is certain details that have changed. The promise was offered to physical Israel. But as they broke the covenant, and God further revealed that our natures needed to be changed, a lot of those images of a physical kingdom in an UNCHANGED world ruled by UNCHANGED man (spiritual {sin} and physical {mortal}) would also be changed; just as your position affirms; only I don't go as far as throwing out the physical (as unecessary and unredeemable) in favor of spirit only existance.

And it also makes them dual! That's all my position is about. There is no way we can apply these things to this life and leave out the complete restoration of our beings (whether "spiritual" or resurrected physical). The promises MUST include eternity!

But it also brought on physical pain and death. That is the context of the Corinthians passages. The "sorrow" of sin under the Law was not the ONLY pain people went through, though it was very significant back then. So that was not the only thing that needed healing. And as I don't buy this business about them not being completely redeemed and freed from the Law until AD70, they actually had this "redemption" then as Paul wrote. It was the physical aspect that remained to be restored. Why wouldn't God fix that; but rather throw it away and leave people as spirits only?

Note, GRAVE! Spirits don't go to the grave. This is clearly speaking of physical death, which was the sign of spiritual death. God restored one at the Cross, and the other will be at the resurrection.

We are legally freed from the Law, but still under the physical aspect of the curse from Adam's sin. And we still do struggle with sin. Death has no sting? Isn't the death of even a saved loved one still sorrowful, even though we muse on how they are now bouncing around heaven or whatever?

And that's the other big hole pf preterism. That the devil has already been destroyed. All the sin and deception in the world (and even in the Church, and including to certain extents, even those truly saved Kingdom citizens!), is just attributed to some "lasting influence", or just our own flesh. So now, Eph.6:12 is completely reversed! It is not "wicked spirits in high places" we wrestle against, but rather [our own] "flesh and blood"! So not only is the Bible effectively a history book, but even its principles are not for us, contrary to what preterists claim.

 

But the whole endtime scenario extends beyond Judea to even the gentile kingdoms. Since those still go on, all has not been fulfilled, and all you can do is spiritualize that in a way that grossly stretches everything beyond any useful meaning.

 

You first said it was conditional. Now you are saying it will have its reality. So when will the New H&E of Is. 65 and 66 be fulfilled?

And when was man able to recieve a new nature? 2000+ years from Christ? Or at the time of Christ? Did those 1st century Jews get a new nature? Did you at your conversion? If the answer is yes, it seems by your own words we are in that New H&E.

That is an assumption. The Bible doesn't say those are eternal. This is your fatal flaw, you get to decide which types are to be dual and which aren't. You also have no idea as to what some of these types will fulfill in the anti-type. It becomes a guessing game.

Where in scripture does it teach tha Adams rebellion brought physical pain or physical death? Did Adam not have nerve ending before the fall?

I hear futurist say our redemption/salvation will be consumated a tthe second coming. They were clearly waiting on something.

First "grave" is where the dead are. So it can be metaphoric for those who are spiritually dead being in their grave. Jesus even called the Pharasies "whitewashed tombs".

Notice Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Physical? Look at the context in verse 1:Hosea 13

1 When Ephraim spake trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he offended in Baal, he died.

Clearly not physical.

Notice Is 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Physical? The timing tells us it is spiritual:

9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation .

When did this salvation come?

Once again you attach a physical meaning to a spiritual situation.

I guess your answer is no, Christ did not accomplish what Heb 2:14 says.

James 1:13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

Why is the devil not mentioned here?

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

What does "above all things" include? Even the devil?

Preterism of course says that was the Jewish age and ended in AD70.

Eph 2:Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air , the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus :
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

There is a lot there we could get into.
More spiritual death.

Prince of the power of the air. That is the same (greek) air mentioned in I thes. 4:17.

Siting togheter with Christ in the Heavenly places.(reigning?)

Ages to come.

Col 2: 9For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Seems Christ now is head of these spiritual principalities(Kingdoms?)

15Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Seems He put down those who were ruling those spiritual Kingdoms.

 

Eric,

Old Testament prophecy was often fulfilled in the New Testament period in a manner not expected. This messed up the Jews' thinking, and it has messed up the Gentile Church's thinking as well. For instance, Zech.12:10, which dispensationalists use to support their idea of a massive repentence of Jews as they look up and cry out for their Messiah just prior to antichrist's attemt to annihilate them, AT THE CROSS! - read John 19:37.

Jesus said about 70 A.D. - "For these be the days of vengenance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." What do you do with this verse? The "days of vengeance" is Isa.61:2 - Jesus said it was fulfilled in 70 A.D.!

Your only recourse is to claim "double fulfillment". That is NOT a valid option because it makes Jesus to be someone who didn't quite have his facts straight. Atheists know these implications and use them to mock the deity of Christ and the inspiration of scripture. Id DF is valid, then who's to say there won't be a DF of the incarnation? The cross? The resurrection?? You see, YOU become the filter with your c,laim of double fulfillment, and I'm not trusting you! Neither should anyone else.

Warren

 

You're the one who just said how prophecy was often fulfilled in a manner not expected. NT prophecy is the same way, so once again it does not nullify what Jesus said. Note how John 19:37 does not quote the part of the verse about mourning. So this too was only partly, typically fulfilled. You see a lot of this, and a book entitled "Right Doctrine from the Wrong Text" addressed things like this, though it was a bit wordy.
Once again, AD70 was the days of vengeance for Israel, but the rest of the world is in sin and rebellion too. God is allowing them to develop to a certain point to fulfill His ultimate plan.
The incarnation, The cross, and The resurrection were antitypes that completely fulfilled any action, sense, scope AS WELL as timing of their promises. The incarnation was the antitype of all those theophanies of the OT. God now had a visible presence on the earth that would not scare man into submission like the flaming mountain top. The cross obviously fulfilled the sacrificial system. The resurrection was sort of the reciprocal antitype of the first Adam bringing death. The second Adam became a life giving spirit. (1 Cor.15:45)
Even still, in a way, there is ongoing fulfillment, as thesethings play out in our lives. God is not "incarnate" through the Spirit in us. We crucify our flesh daily. And our resurrection is what Christ's set the stage from (And His was bodily). So this "It all was AD70, and nothing else remains" obviously cannot be true, even in your system, where there is still something after you die.
So the filter is not me (anymore than it is you or Josephus or Russel, etc), but rather the fulfillment of ALL of the "clear statements", not just time.

 

I said, the basic promise will have its reality. It is certain details that were conditional, as the next step of God's plan superseded them. All over the OT you see promises made to Israel, that if they keep the Law (of Moses), then God would use them to rule the world UNDER the Law. But since they rejected the Messiah, and had him crucified; the Law was crucified with Him, and now all of that changes. God is not commanding anyone to keep the law of Moses anymore, so any pictures showing people keeping the law of moses in the Kingdom have been revised; though I agree that the dispensationalists have gone of here, making the church age a "parenthesis" placed in the middle of God's true dispensation of Law, which will be reinstituted after the prarenthesis and its contents are removed in a pre-trib rapture, and into the Millennium.

By new nature, I meant BOTH a new siritual nature (which we have), plus our tangible life (which includes the flesh, which we still struggle with, and still grow old and die). Remember, your view has this double-stage fulfillment of the new nature too, only you can only get the rest of it through death and receiving some totally new spirit body somewhere else.

The Bible doesn't say what is eternal? The promises made in Rev.21 & 22? Then what is this eternal existance you believe in? Like I've said all along, it becomes very fuzzy, and almost undefined based on the scriptures left that clearly speak of what happens when you die ("judgment", "gain", "works follow with" us; "like angels"). If ALL of those promises are fulfilled now, and are not eternal (and are only symbolic to begin with, even while pain, suffering and the sorrow of physical death continue), then after death could conceivably be a place of pain and suffering too! We just "gain" some rewards from our "works" perhaps. Perhaps even these and the rest of the "unimaginable joys" will STILL be "perceived by faith and not sight" (i.e. "without observation"), just like now. There is really no promise on this. Too bad the Sadducees didn't accept Christ, but cause they, who hoped "only in this world" would have been happy with that.
As I have shown, preterists don't even know what some of their AD70 "antitypes" are, and it is just as much of a guessing game. I think that would be more justifiable for future antitypes than for past ones that should be recorded in history already!
And as I said to Warren, it isn't I who decide what is dual and not; it is whether they actually fulfill all of the promise in any useful sense.

Is pain or physical death a good thing? If you're a God-rejecting naturalist (like those atheists you are so concerned about impressing ), then yes, everything is good; there is no such thing as sin and gad is relative. As far as the exact state of our bodies before the Fall, there is no absolute certainty. Things were obviously different in phsycal creation; because all the animals originally ate only plants, even though we look at them now, and many are clearly built to eat meat.

Like I've said from the beginning; "salvation" (redemption) is threefold: from the penalty of sin, (we have this now) the power of sin (we have this now, but still struggle), and the presence of sin. That last is what we do not have yet, and is what we believe all those references to future "salvation" are referring to.

So, it can be metaphorical". Once again, the whole thing that blows all of this business about "spiritual death only in Corinthians" out of the water, is that in the whole discussion of "graves" here, our resurrection is based on Christ's. Christ never experienced SPIRITUAL death; so His resurrection was was of the only part of Him that died: the body! This shows that it is physical as well as spiritual death that came as a result of Adam's fall, and that both are what are to be abolished by Christ.

Obviously, they did not become spiritually dead just by that sin. So that is a "metaphorical" use of "grave", but it is not describing it as a real place that spirits go to. Once gain; they already were made spiritually alive at the Cross. AD70 was the ultimate confirmation that their faith was true, but it did not itself give them any "spiritual resurrection"; and also again, Christ was not resurrected from any spiritual death.

Only if you assume all of that is all symbolically fulfilled already.

That is a physical meaning to a physical situation. The question is whether the physical situation was apart of the same "curse" that brought the spiritual situation. The Bible says both situation were to be resolved.

Funny that all of those scriptures were written before AD70. (But then I guess that was your "Millennium", and that later, when Satan was "released for a little while" before AD70, then they could blame him for everything again. But this is really another big hole in full preterism, as even the partial prets. point out. For one thing, there are the other scriptures showing that Satan and "wicked spirits in high places" WERE present reality. So we still se both at the same time)
Heb. 2:14 is another promise. "...that He might destroy...the devil". (not "might as in "possibly", but more like "would" or "will".) This in itself doesn't tell us when He would do it. It was clearly future to them, yet still, they bore responsibility for yielding to their own flesh. Meanwhile, Jeremiah was written in the Old Covenant; so would that mean he was already destroyed back then too? It is not one or the other; it is Satan who tempts us through our evil desires and puts thoughts and feelings into our hearts and minds. Then in their time, and now. Ultimately, it is Satan who tempts us, not JUST physical things such as our flesh or others; as is clearly obvious in spiritual warfare, which still goes on. (one of the verses you quoted mentions God, but noone here said God tempts us), but it is still up to us to resist him by not giving in to the flesh. (Remarkable, that this "physical only warfare against sin" teaching comes from the very system of eschatology that emphasizes "the spiritual" over the physical! )

But Satan is not only concerned with the Jewish age. He is the father of ALL lies and deception, and lies and deception still continue on the world. Remember, "gentiles sacrifice...to devils and not to God" (1 Cor.10:20); "Whoever sins [i.e and remains not covered by the Blood of Christ] is of the Devil" (1 John 3:8-10). While we are in the New Covenant of life, they remain under that old covenant of death. Not to forget that Satan was the one who tempted man in the Garden, long before there was an Israel. Once again, all of the sin and paganism that originally sprang forth was from His deception, and it all still continues on to this day.

 

Once again, these pre-AD70 scriptures are speaking of all of that as present reality. So as you said before, there is a sense in which it was present, and yet it would ultimately see final complete fulfillment in the future. That is dual fulfillment, or in "stages". The debate is whether this was AD70 or yet future. Since all of the promises are not fulfilled, then that points to future, and only through an overboard spiritualizing frenzy can you make it past. But the fact that you still believe there is a heaven when you die still makes is dual even if it is past.

 

Eschatologist:
I agree The generation spoken of in Mat. is a reference to the generation to whom he was speaking. In fact, Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70. I do not know about being an iconoclast on this. I know many people who agree with you on this one. The events under consideration in Mat. 24 and 25 are the destruction of Jerusalem and the return or last coming of Christ. The text identifies the themes by the questions the disciples ask of Christ. Context is very important. Mat. 24:1-3.

 

There's been a lot of good discussion in this thread, but it is already 20 pages long. I think it is time to close it and start another one. So by my computer clock I will give it another 9 hours and 33 minutes (approximately) for you to get your last posts in before it will be closed.
DHK

 

Let us go over here and contine the discussion.
click here -->Preterism v. God's Plan for our future<--Click here

 

The time has come.
Ed has kindly started a new thread, and thus this one is closed.
DHK