Prewrath Rapture and Van Kampen

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by spreacher, Oct 12, 2004.

  1. spreacher

    spreacher
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    I will admit it, I haven't settled my eschatology. As a literalist, I'm premillennial, but as far as pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, I find the Bible supports them all to a degree. It's those degrees where all these positions imply Biblical support by stretching the Biblical text that leave me hanging. In my mind, Matthew 24 sets the chronology, and all the above mentioned positions seem to reorder Matthew 24 to some extent.

    Recently, a pastor friend loaned me 3 books by Van Kampen, who suggests a pre-wrath rapture position. I am excited. I haven't done any in-depth study but this position seems to be what I've found in the Bible but couldn't put a name with it.

    Are any of you familiar with Van Kampen and the pre-wrath rapture position? What do you think of this position?
     
  2. n/a

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    Tell us about it...........
     
  3. carlaimpinge

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    I have read VanKampen's books. What he did was try to "set back" PAULINE DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH (advanced and reilluminated by the Holy Spirit through Darby, Scofield, and Larkin) by almost 2000 years. He tried to CONFIRM the teachings of Jesus Christ by CONTRADICTING Paul. That won't work.

    Paul was a unique apostle, different and separate from the 12, who SAW the Lord Jesus Christ in his HEAVENLY body, glorified, AFTER he ascended. He received SUBSEQUENT revelation, which does NOT confirm the teachings of the Lord Jesus within the gospels.

    Besides VanKampen being able to put in print his wild fantasies (Hitler being one of the heads of the beast in Rev.17), he was able to draw out Marvin Rosenthal from the pretrib camp to give his "theory" some form of acceptance and respect. The prewrath rapture is VanKampen's baby, not Rosenthal, although he had the FIRST BOOK out on the subject.

    The beauty of the Bible is that it is written for "anyone" to have prooftexts for what they BELIEVE. It's a double edged sword which will heal you OR kill you, damn you or save you. Now, whether those things are "dispensationally" correct for this TIME is certainly another question. There's no doubt that that the Bible is the word of God, and is the word of truth. It contains TRUTH. All truth though is CERTAINLY not applicable to us ALL THE TIME. (Eating fruit off of the tree of life, marrying your sister, going to Jerusalem to keep feasts, sacrificing turtledoves, raising the dead, or worrying about FLEEING Jerusalem on the SABBATH with a pregnant wife while preaching the kingdom is "at hand".)

    Those factual statements are biblical truth, but NOT "dispensational" truth given TO US.

    Paul the apostle RECEIVED the "mystery" of 1 Cor.15. It concerns the SECRET APPEARANCE of the Lord Jesus Christ, who will raise the dead and the living, whom will ALL be changed, at the last trump of a trumpet. It's counterpart, found in 1 Thess.4, teaches that we ESCAPE the day of the Lord, the time of destruction, when the woman is in travail. That is a HEBREW OT characterization used by Jeremiah the prophet of the INVASION of Jerusalem, and the great tribulation, which starts at the MIDST of Daniel's week. (Jer.30)

    The gathering of the body of Christ is premillenial, pretribulational, but is MIDWEEK.
     
  4. James_Newman

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    I have always held to a pre-trib partial rapture, but would not rule out the possibility of multiple raptures, either. The rapture is like the firstfruits of a harvest, and we are told to watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that will come to pass.

    Mark 14
    34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
    35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
    36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
    37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
    38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
    39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
    40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
    41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    Here, Christ told His disciples also to watch and pray. He returned and found them sleeping and rebuked them, and told them again to watch and pray. He returns two more times. He is praying that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. The tribulation is likened to an hour of temptation.

    This could be a picture of Christians who are told to watch and pray, that they might be accounted worthy, and Christ returning for His watching and praying church, and finding some asleep. Wake up! Then He leaves, to return once again, looking for watching and praying Christians.

    This might explain why Christians see evidence for different times for a rapture.
     
  5. spreacher

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    I'm on the road at the moment. I will give more details when I'm back home and have the books at hand.

    A really, really basic outline of the prewrath rapture position: The first half of Daniel's 70th week is occupied by the wrath of Satan. God promises Christians they will never suffer under His wrath, but nowhere does Scripture promise Christians freedom from Satan's wrath. Therefore Christians will be present during the first half of the week. The Day of the Lord begins the wrath of God. Immediately before the wrath of God, the church will be raptured. This will occur at some point after midweek.

    There is obviously much more detail to the position than what I've given here, but that is a very brief, very basic look at the position.
     
  6. geno

    geno
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    I have read some of Van Kampen's material and I get Rosenthal's magazine and have visited Rosenthal's "Holy Land Experience" in Orlando. By the way, no matter which view you hold to you should visit that place. Anyway, I am dispensational having read Stam, Larken, Scofield and etc. for years. Even so, I have never been swayed from a Post-tribulation view. Van Kampen's makes some good points but I think he misses the mark by not seeing the church go all the way through the Great Tribulation.
    Carlaimpinge mentioned I Cor. 15 written by the apostle to the gentiles. In verses 53-56 Paul is referring to passages in Isa. 25:8 and Hos. 13:14 and the fullfillment of those prophecies at the rapture of the church. If you study each of those chapters you will find that both of them are at the end of the tribulation when Jesus restores the Kingdom to Israel not before the Tribulation. If that is so, and I believe it is, then the Rapture must occur at the end of the Tribulation in fullfilling of those prophecies.
    Carlaimpinge also mentioned the "Last Trump". I have heard it explained as everything from O.T. trumpets to God's last "Ace in the Hole". I can only find one last trump in Scripture and it is in Rev. 11:15 ,the seventh trumpet, which I believe is at the end of the Tribulation. Note verse 15 says " The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of the Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever." This is when Christ removes Satan the god of this world and reigns not before the Tribulation nor even in the middle of the Tribulation as some would teach. The time element is the end of the Tribulation when the trumpet sounds and the church is taken up. The Rapture occurs just before the wrath of God (verse 18) from which we are delivered as it says in I Thess 1:10. Notice Rev. 11:12 where the two witnesses are called up into heaven, what a picture of the Rapture!
    Maranatha!
    Geno
     
  7. carlaimpinge

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    A man who has read Stam and Larkin "should know" that there is a fundamental difference BETWEEN the ministry of Paul and the 12 apostles, not only in gospel message, but hope and ministry. Again, SUBSEQUENT REVELATION has reared it's head which is NOT PAID any attention to. Christ's POSTTRIBULATION gathering of LIVING SAINTS (no dead ones) in Matt.24 and Mark 13 is NOT the mystery of 1 Cor.15, given to Paul BY REVELATION.

    Paul made "application" to Isaiah and Hosea DUE TO the resurrection context, which is certainly NOT a "doctrinal" fulfillment FOR THE BODY OF CHRIST in Corinthians. The RESURRECTION of Jews, not instantaneous changing of nature into the kingdom of God is the subject of the prophets. THAT WOULD CONTRADICT HIS TESTIMONY. Paul writes concerning the DEAD "in Christ", which no OT prophet KNEW anything about. HIS TESTIMONY is a mystery, not "prophetic fulfillment". This is the CONTRADICT PAUL "syndrome", which denies people understanding in the Book. Paul SAID we escape the day of the Lord, i.e, the time when the woman is in travail. Note it in Hosea.

    Seventh is never identified as last by any biblical statement. That is complete suposition, interpolation, and fabrication. There is no last trump in Rev.11, by ANY statement, inference, or association of anything written by Paul. That is a "naive" assumption. There is a seventh angel with a trumpet. Quite a difference from the last trump. A trump is the SOUND from a trumpet. (1 Cor.15:52) Last is DEFINED as "second", NOT seventh by Paul IN THE CONTEXT of the same chapter of the Holy Bible where the UNIQUE TERM appears. (Only Paul mentions trumps. Two of them, by the way.)

    There is no rapture of the body of Christ in Rev.11:18 by any statement. The gathering of LIVING AND DEAD into the air IS NOT FOUND in the book of Revelation. The brother's belief is complete supposition. There is the REIGN of Christ which has ALREADY STARTED in verse 17. (See Rev.12 for details at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, when Satan is cast down.) The wrath is associated with the vails, as seen from verse 19 correlating to Rev.15-16. The THREE CLASSES are his servants the prophets, which are sealed TRIBULATION Jews, along with saints OF THE TRIBULATION (Jewish and Gentiles), and Gentiles who FEAR GOD. (See Rev.11:13, and the angelic message of Rev.14, which occurs AFTER the ascension of Moses and Elijah BEFORE the 7th trumpet of the angel.)

    This is typical handling of the word of God by posttribulationism as manifested by Ladd, Gundry, and Reese. They were scholars, but they certainly weren't bible teachers. When you try to NEGATE and CONTRADICT Paul by the OT prophets or the ministry of the Lord Jesus in the gospels, you wind up "blind as a bat" in the Book.

    It is simply amazing that the brother tried to NEGATE Paul's statement that we would ESCAPE the day of the Lord, the time of the woman in travail, stated by Jeremiah as the time of Jacob's trouble; which is the great tribulation, identified by the Lord Jesus through the Daniel the prophet.
     
  8. PowerndBlood

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    AMEN carlaimpinge, wish i could post like that.

    Great job.
     
  9. geno

    geno
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    I did said I have read them, I have also read Bullinger, Ironside, Sir Robert Anderson, Morris, F.F.Bruce, Welch, Calvin, Ryrie, and many others. That doesn't mean I agree with any one of them on all points or that they are not good men seeking the truth. I compare them with what the Scripture says and with prayer I try my best to understand what God has written.
    In reading your response I have found several things I must question for I do not understand how you can make those statements. You said 'HIS TESTIMONY is a mystery, not "prophetic fulfillment".' I agree that Paul taught the mystery but that doesn't mean the mystery is exempt from prophecy. Paul says in I Cor. 15:54 "So when this corruptable shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." It is pretty plain that when the Rapture occurs Isaiah's prophesy shall be fullfilled. Just because the mystery was hidden from the prophets doesn't mean it was hidden from God. He knew it was coming and He can have the Body be a part of the fullfillment of prophecy if He chooses. After all we are partakers of the cross which was prophecy, communion which was before the cross, and baptism (unless you don't believe we should baptise today)just to name a few.
    As to your comment on the Day of the Lord "Paul SAID we escape the day of the Lord, i.e, the time when the woman is in travail. Note it in Hosea." There are several different referrences to "the day of the Lord" in Scripture. Forinstance in Acts 2:20 "The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come. cp. Rev 6:12 The "day of the Lord" Paul is referring to is just that and it is when Jesus comes back in flaming fire taking vengences on them that know not God at the end of the Tribulation. We miss out on God's wrath at Jesus return.
    "Seventh is never identified as last by any biblical statement. That is complete suposition, interpolation, and fabrication. There is no last trump in Rev.11, by ANY statement, inference, or association of anything written by Paul. That is a "naive" assumption." In Rev. 8 there are seven angels and each one is given a trumpet. In verse 7 the first angel sounds his trumpet, in verse 8 the second angel sounds his trumpet and the other angels in turn each sound there trumpets until in Rev. 11:15 we come to the seveneth angel sounding the seveneth trumpet. There are no more angels given any more trumpets to sound. He is the last angel to sound a trumpet and it is the last trumpet sounded! I believe this is the same trumpet as in Mt 24 and the same as I Cor 15 and it is the last trumpet sounded in God's revealed Word. Hence the last trump.
    'Last is DEFINED as "second", NOT seventh by Paul IN THE CONTEXT of the same chapter of the Holy Bible where the UNIQUE TERM appears. (Only Paul mentions trumps. Two of them, by the way.)' If you mean that "trumps" plural can only mean two trumps then I believe you are mistaken. If you have three trumpets sound in succession you have three "trumps", like wise with four, five or seven trumpets sounding in succession you would have "trumps". That is why I said Paul was referring to the seventh trumpet. I can find no other trump in Scripture that Paul could be referring to. If you know of any other last trump the Corinthians would have known of that would fit this context please inform me.
    "This is typical handling of the word of God by posttribulationism as manifested by Ladd, Gundry, and Reese. They were scholars, but they certainly weren't bible teachers." Rom 14:8-13 Martin Luther taught many things I disagree with but he taught "salvation by grace" and brought about great reform in the church. He didn't understand about Paul but he was a great Bible teacher. Ladd, Gundry, and Reese may teach things both of us disagree with but they have devoted there lives to Jesus and there are thing to be learned even from them.
    In Christ"s Love
    Geno
     
  10. spreacher

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    Here are some Scripture references and Van Kampen's position of events related to those references. More to come in the following days. These references come from Robert Van Kampen, The Prewrath Rapture Position Explained (Grand Haven, MI: Sola Scriptura, 1999). Sorry about the formatting. I was trying to build a chart.

    Olivet Discourse - Matthew 24
    24:4 ----------------Warning
    To God's Elect
    24:5 ----------------False Christs
    24:6 ----------------Wars
    24:7 ----------------Famines
    24:9,21 --------------The Great Tribulation
    24:21 Against God's Elect
    24:9,22 -------------- Death
    24:10,24 ------------- Apostacy
    24:29 ---------------Sign of the End of the Age
    Sun, Moon and Stars
    24:30,27 -------------Sign of Christ's Coming
    Like Lightning
    24:30 ---------------The Coming of Christ
    24:13,31 -------------The Deliverance of Christ's Elect
    The Rapture
    24:14,37-39 ----------The Wrath of God
    The End of the Age or
    The Day of the Lord*
    * page 47

    Comparative Accounts
    The Olivet Discourse and I & II Thessalonians
    Matthew Paul
    24:3-4a The Source of the Instruction I Th 4:15
    is Christ

    24:4b The Warning concerning the II Th 2:3
    Instruction

    24:3,27 The Subject Matter: I Th 4:15
    24:37,39 Christ's Parousia II Th 2:3
    II Th 2:8

    24:3,
    24:29-30 Christ's Parousia Initiates I Th 5:1-3
    24:37-39 God's Judgement II Th 2:1-2

    24:15 Antichrist Temple Debut II Th 2:4b

    24:9,21 Persecution (Opposition) II Th 2:3-4a
    by Antichrist

    24:9-12 The Apostacy of the Church II Th 2:3

    24:22 Christ's Parousia Cuts II Th 2:8
    24:29-30 Short (Ends) Persecution

    24:31 The Gathering (Rapture) of I Th 4:15-17
    God's Elect II Th 2:1

    24:14 The Wrath of God I Th 5:1-3
    24:37-39 (The Day of the Lord)
     
  11. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge
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    The post by Geno reflects sincere belief, but alas is the typical attitude of those who reason their theology, evading direct statements of biblical truth which contradict, discriminate, and differ from other passages.

    Quote:

    You said 'HIS TESTIMONY is a mystery, not "prophetic fulfillment".' I agree that Paul taught the mystery but that doesn't mean the mystery is exempt from prophecy.

    Unquote.

    It means what it says. The mystery of Eph.3 was NOT KNOWN in other ages. (Eph.3) It was revealed to Paul by REVELATION. HE "wrote" about it. Unknown, amazingly to some, means unknown. They DIDN'T WRITE about it. Isaiah didn't prophesy anything concerning the body of Christ BECAUSE it was unknown to him.

    Quote:

    It is pretty plain that when the Rapture occurs Isaiah's prophesy shall be fullfilled.

    Unquote.

    No, it's not plain, and neither is it bible truth.

    His prophecy of chapter 24 concerns the reign of Christ on earth, when death is destroyed. It is NOT DESTROYED at the rapture of the body of Christ. It is destroyed AFTER the millenium. (1 Cor.15)

    Again, as I said, Paul refers to Isaiah due to his teaching on the RESURRECTION at the rapture which he is teaching in 1 Cor. 15. It is NOT a "prophetic fulfillment" of scripture, for it is a MYSTERY revealed to Paul, who WROTE about it, historically.

    Quote:

    Just because the mystery was hidden from the prophets doesn't mean it was hidden from God. He knew it was coming and He can have the Body be a part of the fullfillment of prophecy if He chooses.

    Unquote.

    What great theological insight?! Who doesn't know that God can do what he wants? HE WILL DO WHAT HE HAS SAID.

    You have stumbled and demonstrated that you don't know of what you speak.

    Your salvation is based on the promise of God the Father TO the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE the world began. (1 Tim.1, 2 Tim.1, Titus 1, Rom.8,16) It is NOT based on prophecy. This MYSTERY was given to Paul to WRITE about. (Eph.3,6) It concerns his gospel. (Gal.1, Eph.3,6) He fulfilled the word of God! (Col.1) THAT WORD was "not" the prophets writings, but God's WORDS recorded in time by Paul made to Jesus Christ BACK in eternity. (Rom.16)

    Your own statements as to the day of the Lord OVERTHROW what you teach. There is NO FIRE in 1 Thess.4-5. There is gathering BEFORE, then destruction, and the woman in travail corroborating the OT characterization of the time of Jacob's trouble. That is the MIDST of the week, NOT the end! Flaming fire comes at the end of the tribulation, NOT at it's beginning in the MIDST of the week. You also CONFOUND and CONFUSE the terms, day of the Lord with the great day of his wrath, which is the great and terrible day of the Lord AT the salvation of ISRAEL! (Joel 2)

    Israel IS NOT delivered at the midst of the week, but the END of the tribulation. (Matt.24)

    The wrath to come IN ANY CONTEXT is identified as the time of the great tribulation! (Matt.3, 24, Luke 3, 21, 1 Thess.1,5)

    Quote:

    If you mean that "trumps" plural can only mean two trumps then I believe you are mistaken. If you have three trumpets sound in succession you have three "trumps", like wise with four, five or seven trumpets sounding in succession you would have "trumps". That is why I said Paul was referring to the seventh trumpet. I can find no other trump in Scripture that Paul could be referring to. If you know of any other last trump the Corinthians would have known of that would fit this context please inform me.

    Unquote.

    You EVADE Paul's reference to second as last IN THE CONTEXT. You INTERPOLATE a "false" identification of SEVENTH as LAST in 1 Cor.15, where Paul is speaking about SOUNDS from ONE trumpet, not seven trumpets or one of seven in a series. You CONFOUND a trump with a trumpet. An instrument is not the SOUND from the instrument.

    Your theological view is based on pure fabrication, REASONED without biblical statement.

    Seven or seventh is NEVER IDENTIFIED by biblical statement as LAST anywhere. YOU substitute SEVENTH for LAST in Paul's epistle.

    The trumpet of Matt.24 is certainly NOT the trumpet of the angel in Rev.10-11, nor is it the trumpet which is sounded at the rapture. They are all three different, sounded at different times, identified IN SCRIPTURE as different soundings. (One great sound, one long sound lasting for days, two sounds)

    There are TWO TRUMPS mentioned by Paul in his epistles. (1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15) They are a FIRST and LAST.

    Who doesn't know that you can learn "truth" from anyone IF YOU SIFT IT by the strainer of the word of God?

    As stated, the posties could not teach the Bible concerning the rapture of the body of Christ, for they are blind as a bat when it comes to Pauline dispensationalism.
     
  12. geno

    geno
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    spreacher, It is my opinion that what you have written by Van Kampen is pretty much the truth. I agree with most of the comparisons you quoted and think as you study you will see more and more the wording is the same from one prophecy to another and the time elements fit better than any other interpetation. My only real contention is , to repeat myself, I think the Trib. ceases at the Rapture and then the wrath begins making me Post-trib.
    In Christ,
    Geno
     
  13. geno

    geno
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    Carlaimpinge, thank you for your reply but again I do find some things you have written to me that I find error in.

    QUOTE

    'It means what it says. The mystery of Eph.3 was NOT KNOWN in other ages. (Eph.3) It was revealed to Paul by REVELATION. HE "wrote" about it. Unknown, amazingly to some, means unknown. They DIDN'T WRITE about it. Isaiah didn't prophesy anything concerning the body of Christ BECAUSE it was unknown to him.'

    UNQUOTE

    First I didn't say any O.T. prophet did write about the mystery, I said God could include the church in fullfilling a prophecy. Secondly, if God did have a prophet write something about the church it wouldn't have changed one thing. If you read the O.T. prophets at all you know that often times the prophets wrote things that neighter they nor the religious leader understood till God choose to reveal it to them. It was a mystery to them just as much as if it weren't written until God revealed it. It just showed before hand that God knew what was coming and this to His glory.

    QUOTE

    "No, it's not plain, and neither is it bible truth."

    UNQUOTE

    If it is not plain please explain "...then shall be brought to pass this saying" in a clear, literal, unbias, grammerical way for I honestly see no other way to read it.

    QUOTE

    "His prophecy of chapter 24 concerns the reign of Christ on earth, when death is destroyed. It is NOT DESTROYED at the rapture of the body of Christ. It is destroyed AFTER the millenium. (1 Cor.15)"

    UNQUOTE

    I am not sure if you are referring to Isa. 25 or Mt. 24 but either way I never said death was destroyed in I cor 15 and it is certainly not destroyed in Isa. 25 nor Mt 24. All three of these passages are pre-millineum and death is not destroyed until Rev. 20:7,14 which is post-millineum. Those passages in Isaiah and I Cor. simple show that Christ defeats death in the first ressurection. You can still find death in the millineum and after the millineum when Satan is loosed for a little while.

    QUOTE

    "There is NO FIRE in 1 Thess.4-5. There is gathering BEFORE, then destruction trouble.

    UNQUOTE

    I never said there was fire in I Thess.4-5. The fire is found in II Thess.1:7-8 which is when Jesus comes at His second coming and the fire is just after the gathering ch.2:1 which is the destruction of I Thess.5:3

    QUOTE

    "You also CONFOUND and CONFUSE the terms, day of the Lord with the great day of his wrath, which is the great and terrible day of the Lord AT the salvation of ISRAEL! (Joel 2)"

    UNQUOTE

    You say I am confusing the "day of the Lord" with the "great day of His wrath" which you then quote Joel as being the "day of the Lord". All I did was quote Acts 2:20 to show that the "day of the Lord" is at the end of the Tribulation. The Scriptures are plain and literal, if you want me to redefine "day of the Lord" you will have to give me a reason to do so. To say I am confusing the "day of the Lord" with out giving me any explanation will not help me. I am not your enemy, I see things differently than you and if I am wrong, please show me. Paul rejoiced when the Bereans took what he said and searched the Scripture to see if it were true. I am listening to what you are saying and being a Berean.

    QUOTE

    "The wrath to come IN ANY CONTEXT is identified as the time of the great tribulation! (Matt.3, 24, Luke 3, 21, 1 Thess.1,5)"

    UNQUOTE

    That is simply a false statement cp.Rev.19:15, 16:19, 11:18, and 6:17 to name just a few. These are all verses talking about wrath to come and none of them is the great trib. And besides that you have no proof and only supposition based on your bias to a Pre-trib. Rapture that makes you say that. There is simply no way to show for sure what the wrath of I Thess.1,5 is.

    QUOTE

    "You EVADE Paul's reference to second as last IN THE CONTEXT. You INTERPOLATE a "false" identification of SEVENTH as LAST in 1 Cor.15, where Paul is speaking about SOUNDS from ONE trumpet, not seven trumpets or one of seven in a series. You CONFOUND a trump with a trumpet. An instrument is not the SOUND from the instrument."


    "There are TWO TRUMPS mentioned by Paul in his epistles. (1 Thess.4, 1 Cor.15) They are a FIRST and LAST."

    UNQUOTE

    I cor.15:52 "...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised"

    I Thess.4:16 "...with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

    Theses two passages are discribing one event, with one trumpet sounding one trump one time. This is not one trumpet sounding twice. Also , I find nowhere in either text where Paul says there is only one trumpet. He just makes reference to a trumpet sounding the last trump. There could be one, two, or a dozen trumpets sounding before the last trump sounds. I believe Rev.11 is the last trump because it best fits with Scripture as I understand it.
    Trying to be a Berean!
    Geno
     
  14. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge
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    Geno,

    You keep stating there is error with MY STATEMENTS without proof or refutation scripturally of it. Then you give your doubletalk about what you didn't say, trying to "reason" your thoughts about what God could do. I'm talking verses, NOT what God could have done. Your responses are again evasive to the facts and statements of the doctrines.

    In other words my friend, you think God went ahead and FULFILLED Isaiah's prophecy with Paul's MYSTERY gathering of 1 Cor.15, making it a doctrinal reference to the body of Christ, when Isaiah didn't WRITE about the body of Christ or the mystery of the gathering. (That's what you SAID!)

    Isaiah HAS a fulfillment at ANY RESURRECTION unto life, NOT JUST PAUL'S. There are people raised from the dead several times. (1 Cor.15)

    See, I understand what people say. That's WHY I gave the TEXT which contradicts your point of contention. You AGAIN put forth the ERROR stating that the prophets WROTE about the mystery without it being KNOWN to them.

    That's more doubletalk without prooftext. What you have done is CONTRADICTED Paul. HE WROTE of it, NOT them. (Rom.16, Eph.1) It was UNKNOWN to them. (Eph.3) Of course, I gave more verses in the previous post, but you just IGNORED them.

    My statement about PLAINESS was concerning YOUR STATEMENT, not Paul's.

    Quote:
    It is pretty plain that when the Rapture occurs Isaiah's prophesy shall be fullfilled. Just because the mystery was hidden from the prophets doesn't mean it was hidden from God.

    Unquote.

    Sorry about the mixup of chapters. It is Isaiah 25, not 24 to which I referred.

    You don't seeem to understand that the prophets DID NOT WRITE about the body of Christ, although there are doctrines contained in the OT scriptures which are APPLICABLE to anyone WHO IS RESURRECTED. The context of 1 Cor.15 and Isaiah 25 is resurrection. You BASED YOUR TIMING OF RAPTURE on the prophecy of Isaiah, NOT PAUL, for you SAID it is FULFILLED then. Wrong. Paul STATED otherwise in 1 Thess.4-5. The final victory over death is after the millenium which I pointed out AS FOUND IN ISAIAH. You limited the passage to ONE FULFILLMENT IN TIMING.

    That's exactly WHY Isaiah is applicable to the RESURRECTIONS! Not just Paul's, which has nothing to do with his TIMING.

    Serpentry. If you want to see how a serpent moves, study them. I have.

    Again, more doubletalk.

    You STATED that Christ's coming AT THE RAPTURE is after the tribulation, which also has FIRE connected with it, as found in 2 Thess.1. That is NOT his coming AT THE RAPTURE. The gathering is found in 1 Thess.4-5, with NO FIRE, as I said. It is ALSO before the time of the woman in travail, which you EVADED again. That's before the great tribulation.

    The day of the Lord BEGINS at the invasion of Jerusalem at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, NOT at the end of the tribulation. They go into captivity. It begins with the abomination of desolation and the invasion of Jerusalem. (Zech.14, Dan.9, Luke 21, Rev.11, Micah 2) The great and terrible day of the Lord, ie. the great day of his wrath is the time when ISRAEL is delivered, and Gentile kings HIDE THEMSELVES from the Lord. (Joel 2, Rev.6) That is AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

    Quote:

    That is simply a false statement cp.Rev.19:15, 16:19, 11:18, and 6:17 to name just a few. These are all verses talking about wrath to come and none of them is the great trib. And besides that you have no proof and only supposition based on your bias to a Pre-trib. Rapture that makes you say that. There is simply no way to show for sure what the wrath of I Thess.1,5 is.

    Unquote.


    False statement? No proof? Bias? Can't know? Looks like quite a turn from Bereanism.

    My, my. What dogmatic ignorance.

    The term wrath to come IS NOT found in any of the passages that you quoted.

    The term wrath to come IS A DIRECT REFERENCE to the time of great tribulation. Read the verses son. (Luke 3, 21, Matt.3, 24) Those are the CROSSRERENCES to Pauline USE of the term, found in 1 Thess.1, as found in the book by his BUDDY, Luke! The wrath of 1 Thess.5 CORROBORATES it as destruction, the day of the Lord, and the time of the woman in travail. (The time of Jacob's trouble)

    You AGAIN deny, ignore, and evade the verses. I'm not biased, but biblical.

    Wisdom, knowledge, and understanding COMES from BELIEVING what you read. I certainly KNOW that the wrath to come IS A DIRECT REFERENCE to the midst of the week. (That's what they are fleeing FROM!) Read it and believe it! They will! (Matt.24:15)

    Your explanation on the trump and trumpets is typical and pitiful. You doubletalk yourself into unbelief and ignorance. (Speaking of trumps one time as sounds, then speaking of them NEXT as instruments is not Bereanism, but shiftiness.)

    My statements stand of which you explained none or refuted none.

    Good day. There's no need to respond to this post.
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Carl,

    I will join with you, to discuss with you about rapture timing. Later tonight, I will discuss more details with verses about Lord's coming. Because tonight's my off from my 3rd shift job.

    Early in my Christian life, I was pretrib, because I thought independence fundamental baptist(ifb) doctrine is always right and truth. Also, I used to believe in security salvation, because of all ifb churches teaching on security salvation. IFB heavily depend on pretrib because of security salvation teaching.

    Later, the more I find out, ifb have lot of misintepreting scriptures, and errors. Honest with you, I was really disappoint with ifb. Because, often I heard many baptists always common saying, "I am Bible believer", the reason they saying it, because of KJV. In cases, many ifb churches are KJVO. Let you know, I am a truly Bible believer, and always use KJV all the time, BUT, I am not KJVO. Secondly, often, I heard baptists saying, "I am fundamentalist." To my understand, what they saying, it means, they agree with the Bible 100% everything and sound doctrines with truths. But, later throughout years, the more, I found out, many baptists not really follow the Bible correctly. I am disappoint with them.

    Let you know, more than 200 years ago, all baptists were NOT pretrib. They believed in the only one coming of Christ at the end of the age, no other else.

    Pretrib doctrine was not yet developed till 170 years ago. Then, baptists started to adopted that new doctrine comes from John Darby.

    Sorry to saying that about ifb churches in America. I think ifb are growing so rapidly because of popular teaching on pretrib and security salvation. IFB pastors do not want to preaching on areas in the Bible to the congregation - for example - on Matthew chapter 24 and 25 too. IFB saying these are for the Jews only. Secondly, IFB pastors do not believe the Church will face Antichrist and received the mark of the beast. IFB pastors know of Rev. 14:9-11 is a very serious warning, it is obivously teaching against security salvation. So, they saying Rev. 14:9-11 is speak for "Tribulation saints" who will miss the rapture. Where did they get idea comes from?

    Whilst I was pretrib. One day, deaf friends showed me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3. I told them, when I read it, I MUST FOLLOW and AGREE with God's Word, what it saying. When I read 2 Thess. 2:1-3, I was so shocked and it hit me so hard on verse 3. Verse 3 explains so VERY CLEAR! Apostle Paul said, let no person deceived you by any teaching, for day(gathering together/day of Christ) shall NOT come till we shall see falling away(apostasy) first, and the revealed of man of sin(Antichrist). It tells us very clear the two things must occur first before our gathering together unto Christ. I can't understand why so many ifb pastors seem can't accept the clear teaching of 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

    Also, deaf friends showed me of Matt. 24:29-31. I told them the same thing as 2 Thess. 2:1-3. When after I read Matt. 24:29-31, it hits me so hard, and shocked. I understand Matt. 24:29-31 so very clear and simple. I can't wrestle or argue with Christ's word. I accept and follow what Christ saying. I told them, Matt. 24:31 reminds me of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 fit with it very clear. I can't understand why so many ifb pastors seem do not accept Matt. 24:29-31? Often, they saying, it is for the Jews only at the "Second" coming after the tribulation.


    I ask you a very simple question, PLEASE show me where ONE verse in the Bible saying Jesus Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation????? I need a CLEAR verse to answer my question, please.

    That why I left pretrib camp 12 years ago, because it does not fit with the Bible. I rather to follow the Bible than what men saying according to Col. 2:8.

    Also, At the same time, I was shocked of Revelation 13:9-18; & 14:9-12 did warning to us as Christians, if any received the mark of the beast, will go into everlasting fire, that is obivously teaching of conditional salvation, not security salvation.

    That why, I left security salvation a year ago. I rather follow what the Bible saying than men's - Col. 2:8.


    I am waiting for you to answer my question - where a verse in the Bible saying rapture will be occur either 3 1/2 or 7 years BEFORE "Second Coming"? Or, a simple question- where a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation? Please show me a very CLEAR verse to answer my question. Thanks.

    Later tonight, I will discuss more with details on verses about Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

    p.s. By the way, I am ex-prewrath for 8 years, till 4 years ago, I became full posttrib, because of the Bible teaching only ONE future coming of Christ at the end of the age.
     
  16. geno

    geno
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    Carlaimpinge, Thank you for your imput on the timing of the Rapture. I hope you are not offened that I do not agree with you on this subject and I hope we can talk again on some other topic. My view on a Berean is one who takes what someone says and considers it and examines it, not someone who lays down like a whipped pup. I only accept things I can see and believe fit with the Scripture as God shows them to me.
    In Christ,
    Geno
     
  17. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge
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    Deafpostrib,

    There's no need to do so. Your redundance is overwhelming. You and I have both discussed it before.

    Certainly you remember.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  18. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge
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    Geno,

    Offended? Not in the least. I go by the Pauline rule. (1 Cor.14:37-38) After two times of dealing with someone, demonstrating their manipulation of scripture, it gets tiring. (Titus 2) There's too many people to talk with about it. Only the Holy Spirit OPENS eyes, which some keep closed BY CHOICE. (Acts 28, Isaiah 6)

    Of course, we can speak about another subject, but if you "view" scripture as you have within previous posts, it wouldn't do much good.

    Good day.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Carl,

    Then, you not yet show us where a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come again before tribulation, so, therefore, pretribulationism is a theory and fallacy, and have lot of holes. Myself was a pretrib before, I thought pretribulationism is a truth and sound doctrine. But, I find troubles with verses in the Bible showing there are much of conflict with pretribulationism.

    Posttribulation coming of Christ is show find in Matthew 24:29-31 very, very clear and simple. Because Christ tells us, He is coming back after tribulation. None find anywhere in the context of chapter 24 that Christ saying He's coming back before tribulation. I rather follow what Jesus Christ saying than what men saying.

    You seems do not want to discuss with me about rapture timing.

    By the way, I agree with prewrath and Late Robert Van Kampen saying, we shall face persecutions and Antichrist before Christ coems. Also, I agree with them, that they teaching, we as followers of Christ shall never suffer the wrath of God. 'Wrath' does not equal with 'tribulation'. Both are different meaning. Wrath comes from God for to punish upon people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, received the mark of the beast, remain in wicked, send them into everlasting fire. Tribulation means troubles, trials, sufferings, persecutions. John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:3-4; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:4-6 , etc. telling us that we must go through much tribulations enter the kingdom of God. Because Jesus Christ already suffering on the cross for us, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 1:21; and 1 Peter 4:12-16.

    There is no promise in the Bible saying that we shall escape from the coming tribulation & persecution. History tells us, Church already suffering many tribulations through centuries. So, therefore, pretribulationism doctrine is no common sense, and fallacy.

    I do not agree with Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthal's beliefs on rapture timing. I do reading their books already. They believe rapture shall occur sometime during in the last part of the seven years of "Daniel 70th Week", sometime between 3 months? to 1 1/2 years previous second coming.

    Prewrath borrows from pretribulaitonism on two phases of the second advent.

    I do not see find anywhere verse in the Bible saying there are two phases or split comings.

    Can you see split comings or two phases of second coming find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24?

    Bible teaches us, there is the only one future coming of Christ at the end of age. It is very simple and plain.

    I am waiting for you to show me where a verse in the Bible saying Christ shall come before tribulation.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DeafPosttrib: "Posttribulation coming of Christ is show find in Matthew 24:29-31 very, very clear and simple."

    Why take the postrib bologna?
    You could have had pretrib filet mignon
    from the same scripute :confused:
     

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