Pride is a virtue in the ESV, NASB, NIV

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Will J. Kinney, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Rejoice or Be Proud?

    In the true Holy Bible boasting in oneself is never commended as a good thing. Scripture allows for boasting in the accomplishments of others, but not in ourselves. For example, see 2 Corinthians 7:14; 8:24, and 9:3-4. Here the apostle Paul boasted to others of the Corinthians because they were ready to provide for the needs of the poor saints in Jerusalem.

    Boasting in oneself is done only in a sense of irony, and is called "folly" and speaking foolishly - See 2 Corinthians 11:1, 10, 16-18 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also."

    Pride and boasting in oneself is always condemned in the King James Bible as being a sin. Many new versions however have completely turned this around in several verses of Scripture, and have now made pride in self and boasting to be Christian virtues.

    "Pride and arrogancy...do I hate" Proverbs 8:13

    "When pride cometh, then cometh shame; but with the lowly is wisdom. Proverbs 11:2

    "Pride goeth before destruction" Proverbs 16:18

    "This know also that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be...boasters, proud...heady, highminded" 2 Timothy 3:1-4. "not of works; lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:9

    Compare the King James Bible with the NASB, NIV, ESV, and NKJV in these verses.

    Galatians 6:4 KJB "Let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have REJOICING in himself alone". This is the reading of Tyndale 1525, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587, the NKJV, Webster's, and the Third Millenium Bible, to name a few.

    However the NASB says "he will have REASON FOR BOASTING in regard TO himself"; NIV "he can TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF", and the ESV says: "then his REASON TO BOAST WILL BE IN HIMSELF ALONE."

    James 1:9 KJB "Let the brother of low degree REJOICE in that he is exalted."

    NASB "the brother of humble circumstances IS TO GLORY in his high position";

    NIV "the brother in humble circumstances OUGHT TO TAKE PRIDE IN his high position."

    RSV, ESV "Let the lowly brother BOAST IN his exaltation."

    2 Corinthians 1:12, 14 KJB, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, TMB, and others: "For our REJOICING is this...by the grace of God we have had our conversation in the world...we are your REJOICING, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."

    NASB "For our PROUD CONFIDENCE is this...that in holiness...we have conducted ourselves in the world...we are YOUR REASON TO BE PROUD, as you also are ours..."

    NKJV, NIV, RSV, ESV "Now this is our BOAST...we behaved ourselves in the world...YOU CAN BOAST OF US just as we will BOAST OF YOU in the day of the Lord Jesus."

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJB, NKJV, Youngs, Tyndale, Bishop's, Geneva, and others: - "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown OF REJOICING? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

    The NASB is OK here with "what is our crown of exultation?", but the NIV begins the slide into pride with "What is the crown in which we will glory"?, and the 2001 ESV goes all the way saying: "For what is our hope or joy or CROWN OF BOASTING before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?" Do the apostles get a crown in which to boast because they had won others to the Lord?

    Philippians 1:26 KJB, NKJV, many others: "That your REJOICING may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again."

    NASB "so that YOUR PROUD CONFIDENCE in me may abound"

    RSV, ESV "you will have ample CAUSE TO GLORY"

    Here the NIV has "your JOY in Christ will overflow" which is perfectly acceptable. Rejoicing is not the same as proud confidence. Greek words often have multiple meanings, and the ones used in these verses can mean to glory, to boast, to joy, or to rejoice, depending on the context and intent. All the modern versions will at times render these words as "to rejoice", "to joy", or "to exult". It is when they translate them so as to make pride and boasting in oneself a Christian virtue rather than a sin that they clearly have perverted the true words of God.

    Philippians 2:16 KJB, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishop's, Geneva, NKJV, TMB, and others: "that I may REJOICE in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

    NASB: "in the day of Christ I may have REASON TO GLORY because I did not run in vain"

    NIV: "in order that I MAY BOAST in the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing."

    RSV, ESV "so that in the day of Christ I MAY BE PROUD that I did not run in vain."

    Nobody will be boasting or proud of his personal accomplishments in the day of the Lord Jesus; we will all be flat on our faces worshipping the Lamb who alone is worthy to receive praise, honour and glory.

    Will Kinney
     
  2. go2church

    go2church
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    You have waaay too much free time on your hands if all you have to do is start these threads.

    Nothing is accomplished with these threads. Not once in all my years of being a Christian have I ever heard someone jump up and say "You know what your right, where is my KJV!?" or "Wow, your right hey hand me that NIV over there!".

    There is a phrase "Me thinks though doest protest too much". Just who are you trying to convince, yourself or someone else? I challenge you to move on, as Bobby Knight's wife says "Get off the horse, its dead!"
     
  3. robycop3

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    The Greek rendered "rejoicing" in the KJV in your examples is 'kauchesis' which means, "the act of glorying or of boasting" . The same word is rendered "boasting" in the AV in six places, including in 2 Corinthians 7:14, where its derivative 'kauchaomi'is also rendered "have boasted". Sorry, Will, your latest attempt to prove only the KJV right and everything else wrong has flopped, same as all the others. Once again, the Greek proves you wrong.
     
  4. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
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    Jeremiah 9:23-24 applies to the alleged "boasting", ("glorying"KJV), does it not?
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    My dictionary has 13 definitions
    for "pride".

    pride5 - an exaggerated idea of
    one's dignity or importance

    - obviously a sin

    pride6 - a feelilng of gratification
    arrising from association with
    something that is good or laudable

    - obviously a virtue

    People who don't know about multiple
    definitions of the same word, do
    not earn much respect from me.

    People who have a dual standard:
    the KJV folk can use the same word
    with different meanings at different
    locations BUT those MV folk cannot
    -- these people earn no respect from me.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady
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    Thanks brother. [​IMG]
     
  7. Craigbythesea

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    The translators of the KJV did not have the resources to study the New Testament that even many lay people have today. They did not have a complete concordance for the Greek New Testament. They did not have any comprehensive lexicons or grammars of the Greek language, nor were they even aware that the New Testament was written in a very common dialect of the day, the same dialect that was used in every day speech. They did not know this because at that time no non-Biblical manuscripts had yet been found that used that dialect (Koine Greek).

    Today, however, we have thousands of non-Biblical manuscripts that use that dialect using the same words in context that are used in the Greek New Testament. And as you know, examples of word usage are the very thing that lexicons and dictionaries are made of. Today’s Greek lexicons incorporate data that was not even discovered for more that 300 years after the KJV was published. Today’s Greek grammars incorporate nearly 400 years of language study that the translators of the KJV did not have access to.

    Consequently, modern day Bible translators have many resources available to them that the King James Bible translators did not have. The translation of the Greek word kauchēma found in the NASB is in better agreement with lexical data now available than the translation of that Greek word found in the KJV.

    Will, I know that you love God and His word, but you are not the only one who loves God and who love His word. Many other do too, including some very fine Bible scholars who have learned from their own personal study the value of the NASB and other good translations of the Bible. The King James Version is a good translation of the Bible. It was a good translation in 1611 and it is still a good translation today, but it is not the only good translation. And it is ONLY a translation. The Greek and Hebrew languages are vastly different from the English language and it is impossible to translate Greek or Hebrew into English without both the loss and the addition of information. Therefore, by definition, some elements of the word of God are missing from the KJV, and some elements that are not part of the word of God are added to it. The only pure word of God can be found in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. [​IMG]
     
  8. Ransom

    Ransom
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    robycop3 said:

    The Greek rendered "rejoicing" in the KJV in your examples is 'kauchesis' which means, "the act of glorying or of boasting" . The same word is rendered "boasting" in the AV in six places, including in 2 Corinthians 7:14, where its derivative 'kauchaomi'is also rendered "have boasted".

    And while we're at it, let's not forget Gal. 6:14: "God forbid that I should glory [i.e. boast, kauchasthai], save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." Same word.

    Nothing to see here folks, just another KJV-only double standard. Move along, move along . . .
     
  9. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Go2church responds: "You have waaay too much free time on your hands if all you have to do is start these threads.
    Nothing is accomplished with these threads. Not once in all my years of being a Christian have I ever heard someone jump up and say "You know what your right, where is my KJV!?" or "Wow, your right hey hand me that NIV over there!".


    Well, go2church, maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Apparently the people you know don't really have much reverence for the words of God. These new versions have perverted God's words and you think that is just fine. You see no difference and don't care.

    If you had more spiritual discernment than a turnip, you would drop that perversion you're carrying around and get yourself the real Holy Bible.

    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Will
     
  10. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Kevin, you ask a great question. you ask if Jeremiah 9:23 applies to the alleged "boasting", does it not?

    Yes, it does. Emphatically. Here it is.

     
    Jeremiah 9 :23

    Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:

    9:24
    But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

    These beautiful verses prove my point.

    Thanks,

    Will
     
  11. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Hi Homebound, and I thank you for your short note of encouragement. I thank God that at least some people here can see how God's perfect words are being perverted.

    By the way, the use of the word perverted is purely Biblical in nature. Jeremiah 23:36 God reproves His people with these words:

    "ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God."

    Will Kinney
     
  12. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    By the sea says: "Therefore, by definition, some elements of the word of God are missing from the KJV, and some elements that are not part of the word of God are added to it. The only pure word of God can be found in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. "

    This is pious baloney. You have said nothing of substance, but you say it very well. Sounds like Jesuit cauisitry to me. Are you hoping I'm gullible enough not to see you have said nothing?

    So, tell us, Craig, which Greek and Hebrew manuscripts out there do you personally recommend? Should be an interesting answer. Do you also think like Larry and Bob and many others here that all the Hebrew manuscripts have been corrupted?

    Do your Greek texts continue to change from one edition to the other like the UBS does?

    Does one reading find wide acceptance and then fall out of favor later on, only to be replaced with another?

    You apparently think the KJB is too hard to understand, and now you want us all to learn Hebrew and Greek, which are just a tad more difficult than that "archaic English".

    You guys are a marvel to behold.

    Have a go at it, Craig. Tell us exactly where God's pure words are found today, won't you?

    Will K
     
  13. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Ransom posts: " And while we're at it, let's not forget Gal. 6:14: "God forbid that I should glory [i.e. boast, kauchasthai], save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." Same word.
    Nothing to see here folks, just another KJV-only double standard. Move along, move along . . .
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Ransom, the very fact that you are blind enough to post this response, shows that your spiritual faculties have become unhinged.

    No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the new versions. They just rot your mind to the point you think darkness is light, that's all folks.

    Will K
     
  14. Ransom

    Ransom
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    Well, I'm certainly convinced. I shall light a bonfire and burn my NIV forthwith.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ransom

    Ransom
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    And furthermore . . .

    Ransom, the very fact that you are blind enough to post this response, shows that your spiritual faculties have become unhinged.

    And the very fact that you stoop immediately to the personal attacks without even a scrap of evidence in refutation, shows that you are a self-important buffoon.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Ah yes, this edifying forum returns to what it is best at - name calling.
     
  17. robycop3

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    Originally posted by Will J. Kinney:
    Go2church responds: "You have waaay too much free time on your hands if all you have to do is start these threads.
    Nothing is accomplished with these threads. Not once in all my years of being a Christian have I ever heard someone jump up and say "You know what your right, where is my KJV!?" or "Wow, your right hey hand me that NIV over there!".


    Well, go2church, maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Apparently the people you know don't really have much reverence for the words of God. These new versions have perverted God's words and you think that is just fine. You see no difference and don't care.

    If you had more spiritual discernment than a turnip, you would drop that perversion you're carrying around and get yourself the real Holy Bible.

    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Will

    Originally posted by Moderator Pastor Bob:

    It has been agreed upon that certain terms are off limits in this forum. For example:

    The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as ****"perversions,"**** "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc...

    The MV crowd will not refer to the KJVOs as "cults," "heretics," "sacrilegious," etc...nor refer to the KJV in derisive terms such as "King Jimmy's Bible," etc...
     
  18. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Well, I'm certainly convinced. I shall light a bonfire and burn my NIV forthwith.

    Glad to hear it. Take along some marshmallows and a hot dog or two also. You might as well get something good out of it.


    Will
     
  19. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
     
  20. Craigbythesea

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    Will wrote,

    Good afternoon, Will. [​IMG]

    Thank you for reply to my post. There is nothing pious or baloneyous :D about what I wrote—only undeniable truth. [​IMG] The KJV is a TRANSLATION of the word of God. It is not possible to translate a work containing almost 800,000 words written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into English without some losses and changes of meaning. Rather than worship a 400 year old translation, I study the REAL THING. :cool:

    Total Number of Books (KJV)
    1. The Holy Bible -- 66
    2. Old Testament -- 39
    3. New Testament -- 27

    Total Number of Chapters (KJV)
    1. The Holy Bible -- 1,189
    2. Old Testament -- 929
    3. New Testament -- 260

    Total Number of Verses (KJV)
    1. The Holy Bible -- 31,102
    2. Old Testament -- 23,145
    3. New Testament -- 7,957

    Total Number of Words (KJV)
    1. The Holy Bible -- 783,137
    2. Old Testament -- 602,585
    3. New Testament -- 180,552

    Total Number of Letters (KJV)
    1. The Holy Bible -- 3,566,480
    2. Old Testament -- 2,728,100
    3. New Testament -- 838,380

    P.S. Does anyone know from which of the many editions of the KJV these counts were made? :rolleyes:
     

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