Pride

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    The bible speaks often about pride and in every case it speaks evil of it. I know of no passage where any form of pride is condoned. Today we speak about being proud to be associated with this or that, proud of our children or spouse, our country or what ever. We know that pride caused David to stumble even to number his army and God brought serious judgment on him and his people. Based on scripture is there ever a place for pride in the Christians life and if so when? Does God actually accept pride in a believer as being righteous?
    Would it better be said that we can have satisfaction but not pride? Where is the line?
     
    #1 freeatlast, Jul 23, 2012
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  2. Scarlett O.

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    What makes the sinful type of pride so sinful is that it denies God and it refuses to acknowledge personal sin. I didn't make that up. That's what the Bible says.

    Psalm 10:4 - "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

    Psalm 36:2 - "For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin."

    This is why pride is such an abomination and why God cannot and will not tolerate it. To me, the hallmark of this kind of pride is when a person, either publicly or in the heart exalts himself or herself and desires that others fawn over them and adore them.

    But being proud of someone who has accomplished something is not the same. And I have no problem using the word "proud" in a different context. I have a friend who - through God's help - has successfully beaten porn addiction and now is married to a wonderful woman and has four beautiful children. I am proud of him and what he has done.

    When I have students who struggle in math and they FINALLY get it and their grades soar - I am so proud of them and I tell them.

    Yes, it's a satisfaction of a task completed, a stumbling block overcome, or a life's race well run. And this type of being proud doesn't push God out of the way, like those Bible verse above talk about. In fact, this type of pride in one's accomplishments or the success of others acknowledges that these things couldn't have been done without God's intervention and support.

    I don't have a problem with the use of the word proud - in the proper context.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    I am not saying you are wrong, but do you really think we are able to determine a proper context of acceptable pride when the bible never gives any? Why is your knowledge rather then another's who takes pride further or one who rejects all or any pride of God? If pride or saying I am proud of you or them puffs them or us up at all is it sin? I know that sounds strong but I don’t know how to put it softer. I say that so you understand it is not an attack, just an honest question.
     
  4. 12strings

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    Scripture also says "Give honor to whom honor is due." and that deacons who serve well are worthy of "double honor." We can and should recognize those who do something worthy of recognition, while at the same time thanking God for what he has allowed and enabled them to do.

    I think the fact that we use the word "pride" for that experience does not make it wrong.

    When complimented on something, usually I think it is actually more humble and less-attention drawing to simply say "Thank You." ...rather than refuse to accept any compliment and instead always say, "No, I can't take any credit, it was God [working/singing/serving] through me!"

    (BTW, I'm not sure what that bolded sentence is saying.)
     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    The Bible doesn't give us a context for a lot of things that we do. It's not exhaustive. The law wasn't exhaustive of all conceivable sins and it's impossible for the Bible to be exhaustive of all circumstances and possibilities of human outcomes.

    With that being said, I do believe that all human thinking and behavior can fall under the category of the big three - pride, coveting, and satiation of the flesh.

    Yes, I suppose that people could take compliments and encouragement and the occasional "I'm so proud of you" and turn it into a puffed up arrogance.

    But what about the times that they don't? What about the times when someone expresses being proud of what someone has done and his or her first reaction is "Thank You, Jesus"?
     
  6. freeatlast

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    I think that you might be trying to interchange words and meaning to justify a point. First there is no passage that says give deacons double honor. The double honor passage is for elders and is speaking of pay, not pride. Also being polite by thanking someone is not pride, but rejecting that thanks could be.

    The bold passage is asking if the bible speaks of all pride as evil and we say some pride is good how is what we say of God when another who holds to all pride being evil not of God? In other words if there is no scriptural reference to good pride how can we say pride can be of God?
     
    #6 freeatlast, Jul 23, 2012
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  7. 12strings

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    You are correct, it is Elders...My mistake. But the Pay given would be in recognition of their service, ie pointing out a job well done deserving of attention.

    My point about saying Thank You is that by doing so, you are accepting their compliment, affirming that they have seen something in you to draw attention to. Some would say this is by definition NOT drawing attention to God himself, but I think it can be done in a way that is not sinfully prideful.

    We are told to Boast "in the Lord" and that we know the Lord...So if we can take pride in the fact that We know God, could we not also take pride in the fact that God has seen fit to allow us to have some ability to serve him or the church, or other people.

    And just to clarify the main point of the OP, would you say if I made a Desk for my Pastor out of wood, and upon completion of the desk, had ANY satisfaction in a job well done...that it is sin? Or would you say it is not sin, but I should not use the word "pride" to describe that satisfaction?
     
  8. Tom Butler

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    Since freeatlast is from Texas, Scarlett is from Louisiana and I'm a Tennessee native (now in Kentucky), we understand that we use the word proud when we mean pleased.

    Some of us remember the Grand Ole Opry character Minnie Pearl. Here opening line was always, "Howdy! I'm just so proud to be here." She was not proud in the since that she was prideful. She mean she was happy to be here.

    So when we tell our children we're proud of them, most of the time we really mean we're pleased with them.

    It is obvious God is not a Southerner, or he would have said of Jesus at his baptism, "This is my beloved Son, of whom I'm really proud."
     
  9. agedman

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    Certainly pride, as discussed in the Scriptures, is wrong.

    There is a form of the "pride" shown by the Father toward the Son in more than one scene. For instance, the Father saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    "Well pleased" is what Scarlett O. is demonstrating by the use of the word "pride."

    Two factors should be understood as determiners as to evil or good.

    First, is the motivation behind the approval of the authority above the person is a key to appointment of "pride" being evil or good. Some motivate with and to evil intent - using manipulative words to selfish gain.

    Second, is the expression of approval may be perverted by the approved into a self glorification rather than in Godly assurance.

    Expressing approval may be good and right, but when taken in to an evil heart can become twisted and used to excess.

    A short way to express this dual principle is perhaps in the following statement:

    There are always those who are the teacher's pet, and those who think they are the teacher's pet.
     
  10. freeatlast

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    Again you are trying to change words and use them to justify a point. The word is pride in scripture not "recognition" or any other word. I asked about satisfaction above as it is a different meaning them pride.
     
  11. 12strings

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    1. I'm asking for clarification on the satisfaction question...Are you saying we can feel satisfied in our work, but we should not use the word "pride" to describe it?

    2. Also, there are actually a whole bunch of different Hebrew and greek words that are translated pride in English.

    3. What about these:

    1 Corinthians 15:31 - I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

    2 Corinthians 7:4 - I am acting with great boldness toward you; I have great pride in you; I am filled with comfort. In all our affliction, I am overflowing with joy.

    ---Is Paul Expressing sinful pride in these verses?
     
  12. freeatlast

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    1) Not exactly. The scripture teaches all pride is sin. We should never exercise pride. Satisfaction, joy, being pleased are never mentioned as sin so there is no sin in them. They are totally different.

    2) and they are all sin.

    3) 1Cor 15:31 the Greek word for pride is not in the text. That is an addition and bad translation.
    2Cor 7:4 Again the same thing.

    I would ask are you trying to find a way to hold on to your pride?
     
  13. 12strings

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    -That's what I'm asking, How are they different? And if I say I am proud of my work, have I sinned, or have I simply used the wrong word to describe my feelings?

    Actually your agreement with my #2 discredits your assertion at point #3. There are many Greek Words that are translated pride in English. The fact that multiple translations (done by numerous greek schoolars) including the extremely literal NASB, use the word "pride" in these verses give me reason to think "Pride" is an acceptable translation for whatever greek word was there.

    KJV uses "rejoicing" in 1 Cor. 15:31; and "great is GLORYING of you" in 2 Cor. 7:4...however there is not reason to think these words are better, unless one has a predetermined bias against the word pride.

    Greek lexicon definition for the word, by the way, is "boasting".
     
  14. freeatlast

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    1) Pride is an attitude that causes one to be puffed up and there are certainly different levels of that. Satisfaction simply acknowledges that something to be complete with no particular attitude of being self pleased. I don't think anyone would ever say of God or Christ that they were proud of themselves to one another or anything they did. Yet the Father was well pleased with the Son. We can be well pleased with our children without holding a puffed up attitude or a braggart heart. Pride always brings bragging.
    So if you say you are proud have you sinned, yes if you use it like scripture uses it. I would suggest that because every passage in scripture shows that any pride is sin that the word not be used at all even if we do not mean it for what it represents. Pleased, and satisfied would work better.

    2) that is your choice, but I would suggest it is a dangerous path to take.
     
  15. Sapper Woody

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    I think that today's word "Pride" has variable meanings. One is definitely a sinful attitude, ie, "I am proud of my talent as a piano player". I knew a person who played the guitar really well, and he took it as an insult when someone called it a "God given talent", and he would respond, "God didn't give this to me, I worked for hours on end to get this good." This is a perfect example of the sinful pride as mentioned in the Bible.

    In the English language as used today, the word pride or proud also has a different connotation. If I say, "I am proud to be American", I am not saying that I believe that it is because of my accomplishments that I am an American. In the same way, if I say, "I am proud of my children", does not mean that I believe that I should be exalted because of them. It is, as some have said, a rejoicing or a happiness. But it goes beyond that, even to a sense of thankfulness that they are mine.

    The original sin was pride. As such, it goes without saying that we need to be wary of it. But with the evolution of the English language the word has come to have two meanings. Wikipedia actually says it pretty well:
    On a related train of thought, it's possible that the watering down of the word is one of Satan's ploys to grey out the line between what is sinful and what is ok.
     
  16. saturneptune

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    Tom proudly casted his vote for George McGovern in 1972, like he will proudly cast his vote for Barack Obama this year. This is not proud in the biblical sense, but pleased as he said above.

    All kidding aside, there is nothing wrong with feeling good about a job well done. Two things make me feeling good usually. One is when the accomplishment help another person in some way. The other is thanking the Lord for the talent that came from Him in the first place. I thank him for the skill and the health to do the job. The sin comes in when the thought process of a good job focuses on yourself or "Gee world, look what I did."

    Getting back to Tom, he has been around our church about fifteen years longer than I. Our congregation is a mix of lower to middle class folks. We have no doctors, lawyers, or Indian chiefs. At one time, back in the 50s and 60s, we had some local business owners. Anyway, I say all of that to say that Tom serves in a church that reflects service to the Lord, and not self attention. Tom is very talented musically in both voice and directing music. He could have easily served at a large Baptist church as their music minister as a career. His actual career would have fit right in with a larger, (and more well off) church full of doctors and lawyers. I am not sure if everyone is aware, but Tom was our TV news anchor for decades, which made him a very visible person in the community. Anyway, he serves in our church faithfully, and has been a big factor in the unity that we enjoy today. I have never seen him mad (no doubt he has been, we all have). One issue we disagree on is open vs closed communion, and have discussed it many times. He is a man that calmly explains his reasoning, and respects other views.

    Whenever I think about the issue of pride, I think of Tom as an example. He has a lot more reason to be "proud" of his accomplishments in the community, church, and vocation than I, but yet, he serves where the Lord has placed him, quietly in the background.

    Oh, one last thing, Tom, if I can get your name inserted in Numbers 12:3, do you want to be more humble than Moses, or second most humble?
     
    #16 saturneptune, Jul 24, 2012
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  17. freeatlast

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    When we consider pride and if we should indulge in it I think we must also look at humility and what it really involves in the contrast and see if we really want to cling to the word pride or anything that might relate to it.

    I don't think there is any line one can cross in regards to pride and remain safe while claiming pride/proud. There has to be another way to handle our pleasure with something or someone so as to distance ourselves from this sin. Trying to walk too close to the edge of a clift is as unwise as two single people who think they can handle romance alone in the dark and not get burned or at least come away smelling like they have been in a fire. The smell of smoke many times does more damage then flames as the destruction is seen by the flames while the smoke leves us with a false sense of hope until we get close enough to smell the damage.

    I am inclined to believe that any form of pride will either burn down the house or leave the smell of smoke. Pride will always bring the person to a defense of some kind even if evil has been proven in what the pride is in. All or any pride blinds and puffs up while humility keeps us low and in the proper perspective. Pride either seeks or desires recognition for self or the object the pride is attached to. People who are proud of their country, children, accomplishments or what ever are always finding a way to defend them no matter the evil associated with what they hold pride in. Pride can be offended while humility cannot. We never find pride with the Lord as He was low and humble as we are to be. Pride attaches the person to tightly with the object they are related to that blindness in part or the whole is present.
    On the other hand humility is able to accept, although not seeking or expecting such, criticism or praise and never become puffed up or defensive.
    I think we would be wise to not relate pride of any kind, whether in word or deed, to being virtuous.
     
    #17 freeatlast, Jul 24, 2012
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  18. Tom Butler

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    Numbers 12:3 says nobody was more humble than Moses. Second place is fine for me.

    After all, humility is one of my greatest attributes. I'm really proud of my humility.

    Folks, I have done an excellent job of fooling SN, along with everybody else in our church. If you really want to know about me, talk to my wife. And my children.

    On second thought, maybe you shouldn't.
     
  19. HankD

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    Once again we have a situation in which the science of semantics involving translation must be dealt with.

    The English words "pride" and "proud" include a nuance in it's semantic domain which neither Greek nor Hebrew encompass.

    i.e "to be diligent" e.g. "He took pride in his work" can be expressed by "he took due diligence in his work" or "he was meticulous in his work".

    HankD
     
  20. 12strings

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    I have shown that NOT EVERY PASSAGE in scripture shows pride in a sinful way. (See also the 1 & 2 Corinthians verses cited above).

    As Hank D has stated, there is also a language difference here that is not being taken into account.
     

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