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Priest of Medjugorje Visons of Mary Defrocked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Marcia, Jul 31, 2009.

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  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    True, but to take a non-normative position has no credibility except with the gullible or those who want to believe it.



    I think there is other criteria with Mary, however.

    First of all, there are supposed repeated apparitions of Mary whereas with Samuel you have one appearance, and same with Moses and Elijah.

    Additionally, both of these were recorded in the Bible whereas nothing about Mary appearing after death, or stating that she would appear in the future is recorded. So we can take God's word that Samuel appeared and Moses and Elijah appeared; but there is no authority of God's word for the Mary appearances. I think this leaves a big hole for the Mary appearances. God's word is not behind them.




    It affirms that it happened with Christ, not that it can happen with anyone. It is certainly exceptional since I think this is only spoken of as far as Jesus is concerned.

    Here again, we have it recorded in God's word. So if John Smith down the street tells me he "passed through a crowd" trying to kill him as Jesus did, I might believe him or not, but he does not have God's word behind him.

    I don't argue with people's experiences, such as saying an angel appeared to them or they saw Elijah.

    I do think angels, both fallen ones and good ones, can show up today, though I think it's rare. However, to say they saw a dead person is another category for me. That's the case where I would say "I'm sorry, but I don't believe it was a dead person."

    In too many instances of this, it is in the context of occult activities, so the evidence is that it is demonic (such as going to a medium and then "hearing" or "seeing" the dead person then or later).

    Here's the bottom line for me for all of this: Anyone with a claim to a non-normative event that seems contrary to scripture or has no basis in scripture has the burden on him or her to give evidence. If they can't, then we are not at fault for disbelieving it.
     
    #21 Marcia, Aug 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2009
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Just an interesting point someone brought up to me. Whats the difference between speaking to the dead which is condemned in Exodus and Jesus speaking with Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration?
     
    #22 Thinkingstuff, Aug 3, 2009
  3. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Hi Zenas, Just a few comments...As an Orthodox Christian we began The Dormition of Mary Fast this past Saturday. It has been Traditionally held throughout the Church that Mary died a physical death while under the care of St. John and had a burial. Those Apostles that weren't present for the burial returned to her tomb to discover the tomb empty and concluded that her divine Son had raised and translated His mother to life with Him in the Kingdom.

    Traditionally this is what the Church believes to have happened to Mary's body, but I don't think it's to the point of dogma, hence the reason we only celebrate her Dormition.

    It's been some years since I studied any RCC theology, but if I'm not mistaken the RCC believes Mary never died a physical death as Pope Pius XII in 1950 deliberately left open the question of whether Mary died before her Assumption, which is a break from what the early Fathers collectively taught.

    In XC
    -
     
    #23 Agnus_Dei, Aug 3, 2009
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't see how the 2 are comparable.

    Speaking to the dead - me trying to contact a dead person.

    Jesus, God the Son, who is able to speak to anyone, appearing in a glorified state with Moses and Elijah to 3 disciples for a specific purpose. Moses was visibly there, in some sort of fashion, and Jesus was speaking to him.

    That is not the same as people trying to contact people who have died.

    Anyone who would try to use Jesus speaking with Moses (and I"m not saying you are doing this) as endorsement for speaking to the dead is seriously out of tune with God's word.


    1 Chron. 10:13
     
    #24 Marcia, Aug 3, 2009
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. You are determining the "number" of non-normative events by "opinion" in your response above - not scripture.

    2. I can see how that model might have been used by Thomas when the disciples reported the non-normative resurrection of Christ.

    3. I can "imagine" how the disciples might have responded to Peter, James and John telling them about the "non-normative visit" of Elijah and Moses in Matt 17.

    We have not one case in all of scripture where a "non-normative miracle" is greeted by a Disciple with the observation "well that is non-normative so I would need to be gullible to believe it".

    But as you seem willing to frame the point - it is opinion - not Bible that is the basis for that form of conclusion.

    Interesting.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #25 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If "Non-normative events" can not be repeated - then Christ could have only healed one person, could only have cast out one demon, could only have raised one person from the dead, could only have forgiven one sin as God.

    However - as we know - there is no such rule about "non-normative only once" in all of scripture -- so it is either conjecture or preference or custom or ??? that leads you there.

    The fact that no Bible writer mentions such a non-normative historic event such as Mary being raised to life and then assumed into heaven before the disciples had died - (and thus before the Bible writers were gone) does argue against the event ever having occurred at all.

    I am not convinced that the Bible is arguing that Samuel appeared to Saul or that the servant of Satan really had power to bring up the saints. I do not see any point in scripture where God said he turned over the power to bring up the righteous dead - to the servants of Satan. All He said on that matter was that the servants of satan deserved death for practicing such a deception - and in Isaiah 8:19-20 God argues against consulting the dead on behalf of the living.

    For those who believe Samuel was in heaven at that point - it would be to argue that God gave the servants of Satan power over the dead saints in heaven or in "paradise". No such teaching is found in scripture - but it is found among those who align themselves with the occult.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #27 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hmm -- that reminds me...

     
    #28 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the dark ages was a wonderful time for just "making stuff up"
     
    #29 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jude 7 quotes the book "The Assumption of Moses" as being valid. In that case Moses was not dead in Matt 17 when Jesus was speaking to him.

    So it is not a case of speaking to the dead or praying to the dead. It is a case of speaking to someone that was bodily resurrected and then taken to heaven.

    A very different scenario.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Aug 3, 2009
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    When you say valid. What do you mean? And we all know Moses died it says so in Duet. So Moses had died. I've read the assumption of Moses and I'm not sure you would consider it Valid. And Note Aren't we all alive in Christ even after we die?
     
    #31 Thinkingstuff, Aug 4, 2009
  12. targus

    targus New Member

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    No more odd than the obsession that the SDA has with Ellen White.
     
    #32 targus, Aug 4, 2009
  13. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    unlike the Western Churches, the Orthodox Church tends to avoid defining precise terms regarding Mary's death and assumption, which is why we Orthodox only celebrate/remember her death (Dormition) with a feast.

    The events surrounding Mary's death has always been referred to as legends...some say she died in Jerusalem, or Ephesus or in Antioch...some say she died and was assumed immediately, or she never died and was assumed, some legends have her being assumed 3 days after her death...all are apocryphal, but none have any historical validity.

    In regard to Mary's death, St. John of Damascus wrote in the 8th century:
    St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven. (Fount of Wisdom. I, 96)​
    So from St. John of Damascus, we know all the Apostles minus St. Thomas was present when Mary died...how the Apostles arrived to witness Mary's death is really irreverent and is not dogmatized or treated as any historical fact in the Orthodox Church....but it is a pretty cool legend and who's to say God couldn't have done something as cool as transporting the Apostles on clouds to Mary's death bed?

    BTW Bob, try not to stress out over this...its not worth it.

    In XC
    -
     
    #33 Agnus_Dei, Aug 4, 2009
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. I mean that Jude affirms the facts found in the book "The assumption of Moses" by quoting them as fact.

    2. The assumption is not a reference to "translated like Elijah" it is a reference to "died, resurrected and then taken to heaven".


    Hint - you could not have read all of it.

    Christ states in Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead" as a "proof" that there MUST be a resurrection.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #34 BobRyan, Aug 4, 2009
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I find your logic in trying to connect those two points to be "illusive" just then.

    Unless you are claiming the extreme position that affirmation of the 1Cor 12 Gifts of the Spirit is to be equated with mariolotry. (Which I suppose may be your point -- one can always use clarity in such a nonsequitter as you have offerred)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #35 BobRyan, Aug 4, 2009
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I am speaking of extraordinary claims outside of the recorded events of the Bible. Anyone who makes such a claim needs to give evidence for it, especially if it duplicates something in the Bible (such as walking on water, going to heaven and coming back, etc).
     
    #36 Marcia, Aug 4, 2009
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I never said nor do I think the medium brought up Samuel because she cried out. There is a reason God tells us that; she was surprised. Samuel was not what she usually saw (iow, he was real whereas she was probably used to seeing nothing or something "ghostly" like a spirit/demon).

    Another way we know this is Samuel: The Bible says it's Samuel, Samuel rebukes Saul for disobeying God, and Samuel correctly predicts Saul's death.

    Saul wanted his prophet and God gave it to him - in spades!
     
    #37 Marcia, Aug 4, 2009
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The bodily assumption of Elijah and the fact that the burial place of Moses' body was not given is interesting in light of this passage (appearing with Jesus on the Mt of Transfiguration) and in light of Rev. 11 about the 2 witnesses:
    "These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

    Shutting up the sky is a power given to Elijah and turning water into blood and bringing plague was a power given to Moses. I do not think the 2 witnesses in Rev. will actually be Elijah and Moses (though they could be) but they will be 2 people for whom Elijah and Moses were types.

    Of course, Elijah and Moses represent the Law and the Prophets.
     
    #38 Marcia, Aug 4, 2009
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Bob, Jesus is the firstfruits of bodily resurrection -- he is the first One to have bodily resurrection; Moses was not bodily resurrected. I think it's possible he could have been taken to heaven as Elijah was but he was not bodily resurrected.
     
    #39 Marcia, Aug 4, 2009
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The mystery around Moses is that his burial place was not given or known; this was highly unusual in the OT for someone of that stature to not have this recorded. Jude records a dispute over the body of Moses between Satan and Michael the archangel.

    I think possibly Moses died but was then bodily taken to heaven; Elijah was bodily taken to heaven while alive. But I have not thought too much about this.
     
    #40 Marcia, Aug 4, 2009
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