Primitive baptist

Thanks, Bro. Robert.

I haven't forgotten what I promised to send, just haven't gotten it done.

While I got your attention, got any good stuff on acapella singing? Elder Eddie Flick in Ga is publishing a newsletter for this kind of stuff, and has asked for help. I promised to put some stuff together on hymnody in the Appalachian tradition, but with my promises there is always a caveat, if the Lord give me strength enough to do it all. I have been sorely tempted to expand my hymns web site, just haven't had the energy to get it done.

 

Where is your hymn site I would love to see it. Does you have Sacred Harp singers? I hear they are prevalent in that part of the country. I don't know of any on the West Coast or in California.

For those who don't know what Sacred Harp is it is a singing style practiced only by Primitive Baptist. They sing just the notes to warm up then sing the words. If you have never heard it those who love accapella style of singing should avail yourself to hear it once in your life... Anyway I'll find the site and post it later.

Elder Jeff check your email I sent you a letter... Brother Glen

 

Jeff,

I really haven't studied much about Primitive Baptists, for several reasons. I've read about them in a handbook of denominations, and I've seen a couple of websites.

What information was I wrong about? I'd like to know, and please feel free to correct my misinformation, if you will. I'd like to learn as much about Primitive Baptists as I can.

rl and Jeff,

Thanks for your help in finding out about Progressive Primitive Baptists in Mississippi; I look forward to any information you can provide me.

 

Here is a Sacred Harp website from us "Away Here in Texas." It is maintained by Gaylon Powell, a dear brother and great singer, and a member of Littlevine Primitive Baptist Church in Austin, TX. He also has some links to other sites that may interest you. Maybe this will be of some help and maybe I can get some other information for you.

One slight correction, Brother Glen - Sacred Harp is not sung by only Primitive Baptists, though it is predominately so. Here in Texas, perhaps 60% or 70% of the singers are Primitive Baptists, the others coming from various denominations, such as Missionary Baptist and Methodist. One of the main reasons this is so predominately Primitive Baptist is because so many churches not only have musical instruments, but also have moved toward more "modern" musical styles. (Note: though "Church of Christ" are acappella congregations, they almost always consistently refuse to sing with those outside their own persuasion). I know there are a few singings in California and Colorado. I have a minute book of singings also. I will look it up. Sacred Harp singings are most prevalent in the South, with the largest following in Alabama. But there are singings scattered across the United States, and now even in Canada and England. Some of the interest outside the center, though, has been more of an interest in Sacred Harp as folk music rather than religious music. This accounts for some of the non-Primitive Baptist, and even non-religious, following.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

Bro. Glen.

No email here yet, but here is the link to the hymns web site: http://members.aol.com/jweaver303/hymn/
That's another of my AOL screen names, but don't try to send mail to the 303 address, have all mail there blocked. Have enough junk as it is, but feel free to use the [email protected] address.

 

Dear Michael

Where to start, where to start. I think these were from you, or at least they were mentioned in some discussions you participated in.

The first errant observation I noticed was that Primitive Baptists divided from Southern/Missionary Baptists. Nope. I have seen this put out in print other places, but it just ain’t so. Most of our folks would argue that it is the other way around, and have good reason to state that. To this end, our folks still practice in a way Baptist Churches operated before the onslaught of the Wesleys and Methodism. Baptists before about 1800 had nothing called Sunday Schools, Primitive Baptists still don’t, Missionary Baptists do. Most Baptists at one time subscribed to the Philadelphia or London Confessions of faith, Missionary Baptists changed theirs, we didn’t. Many Primitive Baptists still use the legal name “Regular Baptist,” this is especially true of churches established prior to 1865. The Church I originally joined, prior to moving away from the area, was established as the “Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ on Big Helton Creek.”

That being said, the churches I am familiar with, here in the east, for the most part ante-date Missionary Baptist Churches in the same neighborhoods, and were never part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and their parent and grandparent churches weren’t either, so, how could we split out of something of which we were never a part? A good number of churches in this area can trace their heritage to and through the Welsh Tract Church in Newark, Delaware, which is still a Primitive Baptist Church, was formed in Wales and came to America en masse in 1703. Some of us still have some correspondence and limited fellowship with our Particular Baptist brethren in England and Wales. This waned considerable over time because of distance, but those that remain there and here are pretty much the same, even to this day.

The second issue, and I am not sure whether you said it or not, is that Primitive Baptists are hyper-Calvinists, and thus heretics. Whether or not we are heretics, God will judge, and I don’t believe we are. Certainly no more heretics than many other Christian denominations, and certainly not as heretical as others. For example, most of the folks I know feel much more kindly toward Presbyterians than some other Baptist groups would like. As for myself, If I were not a Primitive Baptist, I would be a Presbyterian.

On to the major issue, our folks would tend to resent being labeled Calvinists. We rarely use the term among ourselves. We are in agreement with the five points of Calvinism, and I find no shame in that, and no I am not going to argue the points of it. One of these days I might, but not today, not up to it. In this thread, don’t remember exactly where now, would have to do a search, and I am writing this off line, we were accused of believing of double predestination. Nope, it ain’t so. We believe that at some point in what we consider time, God chose a people out of every kindred, tongue and people on the face of the earth, and that he made a way to reconcile himself to those through the blood of Christ. Most of us believe that host will be beyond our ability to count, and we can count pretty high.

Someone in this same thread brought up the term “hardshell” or “hardshellism” it wasn’t you to the best of my memory. We have sorta embraced this term, though it wasn’t meant originally to be one of flattery. As I understand it from some of the older folks it was applied to us for excessive use of the scripture where the angel came to Joseph and told him, “Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for she SHALL bring forth a son, and thou SHALT call his name Jesus, for He SHALL save his people for their sins.” I believe that she, Mary, did bring forth that Son, and that He was called Jesus and he did (already, past tense), save His people from their sins. If believing that makes me a hardshell or more properly a hard shall, it is perfectly fine with me. (Seeing a more militant side of me yet?)

I think in this same thread, I am referring to, you noted that we were nearly gone for believing what we believe. Perhaps so. Our fathers and grandfathers reacted in some ways they shouldn’t have to the changes they saw happening in the early 19th century, and maybe they went to far the other way. But if the truth were known, we are about as numerous now as we were then. It appears from reports that such isn’t the case, but from our internal guesses we have about 75,000 members in white congregations in the United States, and about 50,000 in African-American congregations. Are we sure of the numbers, no. Many of our churches are no longer in associations, and don’t report their membership statistics to anyone. In 1886 our preeminent church historian, Sylvester Hassell, estimated there were 100,000 Primitive Baptists. So, we have slipped some, and a lot of our congregations are old, and a lot are not. That said, we are different from many churches in that we have lots of folks who attend regularly who are not members. We would estimate among ourselves that our members and friends would amount to about 250,000 folks. Some of the slipping in numbers comes from lack of enough ministers to keep all the meeting places open. Some comes from our folks allowing their children to attend Sunday School with their friends, and be swayed away from the faith of their fathers. We should be much stronger than we are.

Of late their has been a resurgence in Calvinism among non-Primitive Baptist Baptists – the Founders movement in the SBC, the increasing number of Reformed Baptists and Sovereign Grace Baptists, the Calvinist types among the IFBs, so it isn’t really so much a doctrinal thing that keeps us down. It is somewhat internal to us the reason for some of this. Our folks have a habit of turning the other cheek when some one says something about us that isn’t true. Often we have let others answer for us, who don’t have any clue about what we believe. And frankly some nut-cases have appropriated our name, and folks associate all Primitive Baptists with the odd theories and beliefs of a few. Note some of the questions at the beginning of this thread (I’m not saying those asking the questions are nuts, but there is apparently considerable disinformation about us out there).

And with that I fear to have rambled on entirely too long.

With respect, your friend, but apparently a heretic.

Jeff.

 

For all, but particularly to Glen and Michael:

Glen, I have found that there are several Sacred Harp singings on the West Coast - there are conventions in California, Oregon, and Washington; and there are afternoon sings in the following areas of California: Los Angeles, Monterey, Oakland, Palo Alto, Poway, Sacramento, San Diego, San Francisco, and Santa Cruz. If any of these are close to you, and you are interested, let me know and I will send you more details. We had a couple from California visit our Southwest Texas Convention at Littlevine PBC in Austin last month.

Michael, I checked the minutes and the directory that I have of Progressive Primitive Baptists, and found no churches in Mississippi. The closest church to Mississippi seems to be the Grace Chapel PBC in Huntsville, AL. There are probably many black Primitive Baptist churches in Mississippi that are affiliated with the National Primitive Baptist Convention. These churches are progressive in nature. I do not have any specific details on their church meeting locations.

 

rl,

Thanks for checking.

Jeff,

I would never call you a heretic--and I don't believe you are one, either.

 

RL: Can you tell me where the one is in San Diego and when it is I would like to go. Tell me where I can check to get that information?

I want to apologize to everyone for giving misinformation on sacred harp singing. Well I was half right... He He... Please forgive this ignorant christian.

I found sometime interesting though, if I go to google.com which is a search engine and type sacred harp I get more sites than I can shake a stick at... Just thought I would let you know... Brother Glen

 

Got a song here you might like. It's beautiful. No music.
http://www.maranatha-missionary-baptist.org/music/ra/down.ra

 

By the way, I am sorry for not controling my tongue earlier in this thread. Sometimes I'm guilty of just speaking out of the heat of the moment. Not a good habit.

James 3:5-10 "5Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 8But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."
If you will forgive me, I'll try not to be a blasted idiot anymore.

 

Jeff,

If you were not a Primitive Baptist, you would be a Presbyterian? Could you accept infant baptism?

 

Michael

Why Presbyterian? Easy enough. Old School Presbyterians and Primitive Baptists are very close in the major points of how they view God, and man's relationship to God, and to me those are the key issues of religion.

As for infant baptism, I don't think it is the correct thing to do, but I don't think baptism as an infant or as an adult has any bearing on one's salvation. To my way of thinking baptism is an outward and visible sign of God's indwelling within the individual. Whether a person is baptized as an adult or an infant has nothing to do with whether or not God has give the individual a heart of flesh and removed the stony heart. So, on the list of things I count as important, when and how one is baptized isn't as important as being kind one to another, living an morally acceptable life, etc. And Presbyterians, at least the ones I know will baptize adults by immersion if requested to do so. It was/is common in rural areas of Appalachia for this to be the case. Don't know if it is in every Presbyterian group or every area.

We live very close to a Presbyterian church, and several other denominations as well, including some different types of Baptists here in Arlington. Within a mile of where we live we have a SBC, Episcopal, Catholic, Orthodox, United Methodist, Indepent Baptist Church, and a National Baptist Convention Church (I think), Lutheran, Church of Christ, and a Reformed Jewish Synagogue. When I got sick, it was the Presbyterians who came to look after us, to see if we needed anything. And when others in the neighborhood have had a problem, monitary, emotional, whatever, the Presbyterians are the first on the scene. We had a tornado come through a few years back and it damaged one of my neighbors' house, and she was a rabid Catholic. It wasnt the Catholic church who repaired the house, but the Presbyterians. She was an unemployed widow, with no insurance. My next door neighbor is a old single Jewish fellow, and when he had a heart attack, it was the Presbyterians who made sure he had something to eat when we didn't, after he got home from the hospital.

So, from my personal experience, the Presbyterians have shown their Christian love in a degree that no other church in this community has, and that is why I would be a Presbyterian if I were not a Primitive Baptist.

 

Jeff,

Thanks for that response.

You said that you believed baptism is an outward and visible sign of God's indwelling within the individual. I believe this is true, also. But if so, how can infant baptism rightly be called baptism? Could you ever baptize an infant? I don't know if I could or not; I have serious doubts about it.

 

Michael

We agree, I don't know if you could call it baptism or not, and seriously doubt it. But whether or not one is baptized as an adult or sprinkled as an infant, has no bearing, IMO, whether or not that person is a child of God, and that is the important issue to me.

J.

 

Jeff,

That's true; I agree. But if you were a Presbyterian minister and were asked to baptize an infant, do you think you could do it?

 

Bro. Glen, there are supposed to be Sunday evening singings in San Diego 1st-4th Sundays. First and Third at Old Poway Park on 14134 Midland Road, and Second and Fourth at First Unitarian Church in Hillcrest. The All-California Convention is the 3rd Sunday in January and Saturday before, but I would suspect in meets in different places. It was in San Diego in 2001.

 

rl, Glen, and Jeff,

Are there any Primitive Baptists who are Arminian in doctrine? Would any of the Progressives be Arminian?

 

For those who might like to hear some Primitive Baptist singing and some Primitive Baptist sermons, check out this URL:
http://play.oneplace.com/Stream/ministries/bbh/LiveStream.asp?url=http://play.rbn.com/?url=oneplace/oneplace/g2demand/media1/programs/rm/bbh/bbh20010729.rm&proto=rtsp

 

Michael, you asked:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Are there any Primitive Baptists who are Arminian in doctrine? Would any of the Progressives be Arminian?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The easy answer is no. The complicated answer is it depends on what the definition of is is.

There is a large group in East Tennessee, the Eastern District of Primitive Baptists, that might fit the Arminian point of view, but their practice isn't that close to the more traditional view of Primitive Baptists. No other Primitive Baptist group recognizes the Eastern District as being of the same faith. There is a group of people in Wilkes County, North Carolina, which call themselves Primitive Baptists, but they are affiliated with the Mountain Union Baptists, and wouldn't be recognized by any other group calling themselves Primitive Baptists. They hold to a "milder form" of Calvinism than do most that use the name Primitive Baptist.

And then there is that bunch of nut cases in Topeka, Kansas, the Westboro Baptist Church, that sometimes present themselves as Primitive Baptists. None of us want nothing to do with that crew, no shape, no form, no fashion, never, nada, zilch, zero affiliation with them; it ain't gonna happen. (Enough negatives in that sentence for you?) They have no legitimate claim to be Primitive Baptists, but we can't stop them from calling themselves what ever they want.