Profess Jesus yet follow Moses

Two observations:

In all probability, and certainly not trying to brag, by any stretch, there is no one regularly posting on the BB that is a stronger advocate of 'grace' than I am. I regularly and habitually, support completely the misnomered and redundant "free grace" ideas. (If it ain't "free" in the first place, it ain't grace!) The Mosaic Law has not one thing to say to me, as a Christain, other than it is there for the purpose of:

Before I was a Christian, as I am a Gentile, it had no claim or bearing on me. (Gal. 2:16) Now as one, I'm not "under the law", hence, I'm not bound by a single one of its precepts - not one! Any of it's concepts that are for me today, have been restated in the NT in the pure language of grace. So I do see, and I believe, see clearly the distinctions.

Are you with me so far??

Now, that having been said, there is something about the OP and what he (he, anyway, if that is 'his' photo) presents in virtually every post of his that I have read, that is a continual bur under my saddle. No matter how many times I read, that 'irritation' does not leave me. I happen to believe that one of the two spiritual gifts I was given when I was saved is that of the 'discerning of spirits' or 'spiritual discernment', (along with that of 'teacher', and not that of 'pastor/teacher', BTW) as some might phrase it. There are individuals on this board with whom I disagree with strongly on many things (and have gone 'round and 'round with on a few) that do not evoke this 'irritation' with me. Some, I may have even almost gotten angry with, especially one recently banned individual who gave new meaning to "racist bigot" whom I did get angry with, that have not given me this 'sense' of 'irritation'. And I want to agree with much of what the OP has written, even. But that sense does not leave. Sorry, and I have nothing against anyone, but something is just not right here, IMO.

Ed

 

FTR, I am not singling out stanleyg, except that he happened to be the OP. There have been four or five other individuals that evoke the same 'irritation', that I have read posts from on the BB, that have done the same. And although I'm usually an "Equal Opportunity Offender", I just haven't mentioned this before.
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But, as I'm always looking for new names to add you understand, :tongue3: and since I don't want these to feel lonesome, I'll be more than happy to add any who would like to join my list. :thumbsup: In fact, I feel like adding a couple today! Think I'll start with a good candidate or two. Let's see - how about I start with Broth...! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

Ed

 

Ok, Ed;
Which one of the Commandments are you breaking? Come on, fess up!

1. Are you worshiping an idol God?

2. Are you a thief?

3. Are you a murderer?

4. Are you an adultereous?

5. Do you or did you honor your Father and Mother?

6. Did you covet you neighbor's wife?

7. Are you a liar?

8. Do you dishonor the Sabbath?

9. Do you Love the Lord thy God?

10. Do you take the Lord's name in vain?

Now, before you get all hot and bothered. I believe what Apostle Paul did.

There are those who desire to know the Law but know not what they say and neither do they understand, but we that know the Law, know it is not for the righteous but for the sinner and ungodly.


1. Why is it not for the righteous
a. Because the righteous don't do the things contained in the Law.
b. Because if a sign says drunk drivers go to jail it has no effect on a non-drinker.
c. Because the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in a Christian for he don't commit such acts.

2. Why is it for the sinner and ungodly.
a. Because they don't have Christ to set them free.
b. Because they did not know sin except the Law said "thou shalt not commit adultery".
c. Because sin is transgression of the Law and a sinner certainly sins.
d. Because they are dead in sin because the law killeth them.

Can the Law give life? Not on your life and I never have said so.
The Bible however does say "I will write my laws in their hearts and their minds.".
Righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us. (I wonder how)?

BTW, you can write my name. I am a big boy.

 

Paul says that as a born again Christian HE AGREES with the Law of God (Romans 7) and in fact his faith is that which ESTABLISHES the LAW of God Rom 3:31.

Paul argues in Heb 8 that the LAW of God is WRITTEN on the heart under the New Covenant.

So it is more than just "a nice thing" it is THE WORD of God!

In Christ,

Bob

 

More later, if I have the time, but a couple of things, now.

Paranoid, Bob? :smilewinkgrin: At current count, there are twenty-four ('elders'- maybe?) individuals on the BB with some form or another of the handle of 'Brother something or other'. And roughly half, I'd assume, of all the members of the BB are male, as well. As one from a Baptist background, we normally address a male as "Brother so and so", as well, and although I normally use only the posted 'handle' on the BB, this is not always the case. So don't you think you might be assuming a bit much to necessarily figure I was referring to you? Had I said one with a picture, you would have had a 50% shot at making that assumption, as only two titled 'Brother' have pictures on the BB list.
But do remember this- "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody is not out to get you!"

Since I'm going to answer this, I'll take the easier route and start by which ones I haven't 'broken'.
I'll answer this with something I heard from a message over the radio on the Ten Commandments a few years ago by Bob Russell, the 'Senior Pastor' of the largest church in KY. He listed all ten, spoke briefly about them, remarked that a lot of us were glad the third commandment about graven images was in there, and then said that now he was not asking about the attitudes, necesarily except about 'coveting', but only the physical acts. He asked the whole congregation, and remember, this was easily the largest congregation in the state, and was at the time, the third largest church auditorium in the entire United States, "How many would say you've 'kept all the Ten commandments'? Remember, I'm not talking about such things as lust or 'hating in your heart' but just the overt acts. Would you mind raising your hand, please? I can't raise mine." He got no hands. "How about kept nine?" Still nothing! "Eight?" "No one? Seven?" "Six?" At six he got a few hands. He said, "I'm glad to finally see a few hands. And you might notice mine is still not one of them." He said, "I figure I've kept three- the first is 'Thou shall not make any graven image', and the other two are 'none of your business'!" :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Only kept 3 or less? Sure you was not at a bull fight?
Well, if that is all you got to say then I guess we end it here other than to say there is a lot of trangressors, and not just the world either. Those who say that the Commandments are not in force now have nothing to guide them. Oh, I know the Spirit. There is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God almight that teacheth him right from wrong. Also, the Grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men teaching them to deny ungodliness, etc. Must teach them what ungodliness is and according to God's word, sin is transgression of the Law. That is just a start. I don't preach the Law gives life but I do preach to break the Law is sin.

So, we will say how can the Law guide you. Well, the Lord said I will put my laws in their hearts and write them in their minds. I always supposed for a reason. I don't think He just did that to keep Himself busy.

 

I m guilty of breaking both the great commandments...Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart,,,,,,,,,,,and thy neighbour as thineself.......I have trouble with both of them and if I raised my hand, I would be a liar,,,,,,,,and scripture does say that no liar shall see heaven......

I see the so-called ten commandments as the moral character of God, to which no man..no man....can attain, except clothed in Jesus' righteousness and at the last day after the judgement.

Cheers,

Jim

 

:applause: :applause: :applause: :thumbs:

Brother I pcitured you on the pulpit with your hand in the air and spit hitting the first few rows as you said, "no man... no man etc..."


Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Then the old motive operandi

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

Why? would you be concerned about the one commandment of lying and not the rest? interesting. Wonder how the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us or is the Scripture wrong?

 

Actually, it was Bob Russell who said that he kept three. I'll just say that as for me, outwardly at least, I've kept the one with the "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven (carved) image" bit, and how many more, is none of anyone else's business! :smilewinkgrin:

I've never been to (or even seen on TV) a 'bullfight'. But I was at a 'Wild West' type rodeo, and a re-enacted 'gunfight' a couple of times in Wyoming. I'm from KY, as most of you well know. We don't do bull fights, here, except occasionally on the farm. Cockfights, on the other hand, are fairly commo... Uh- Oh yeah! I ain't about to say how many of them I'se ever at (some more of the 'none of anyone else's business, you see), but will say that I was not at the largest 'un they ever raided! :laugh:

Ed

P.S. Keep watchin' this thread. Hopefully I'll get someting detailed and hopefully insightful posted over the next couple of days.

 

Quoting BobRyan,
"Paul argues in Heb 8 that the LAW of God is WRITTEN on the heart under the New Covenant. So it is more than just "a nice thing" it is THE WORD of God!"

Yes, BobRyan; and no, BobRyan. Yes, we -- believers in Jesus Christ -- do think in terms of the ten Commandments, whenever confronted with temptation. But always scarcely, but we start thinking on Jesus Christ, and how we might offend Him; and what He has done for us and to set us free from sinning, and to forgive us everlastingly, so that we just cannot go on sinning ... Romans 6! Jesus is that Word of God, living, in Person, with almighty-Holy-Spirit-contact with our hearts and minds ... it is the Holy Spirit that convinces of sin and of judgement and of righteousness - with vibrating effective power -- not the Ten Commandments -- not any longer --- not for the Christian! We are not pathetic any more .. like some who depend for their very life upon it.

 

You write off those NT texts of God's living Law - His Law of all times from eternity, before there ever was a Ten Commandments - as if THAT LAW is for the hypocrites. God wroteHis Law in the heart of men when he convinced them of sin by the Holy Spirit and showed them saving righteousness when He revealed to them "the Righteousness namely of God", even Jesus Christ --- "in me", says Paul. I am not aware of tables of stone within my heart. Not because they were unbrakeable did God write them on stone tables, but to show how fragile they were - how destraoyable; twice - another just after the first was dashed to pieces. And the last nobody knows what happened to it - just disappeared ... With God's finger, it says, did he write His Law - The Finger of God by which Jesus Christ drove out devils ... the Holy Spirit. If not the Holy Spirit write the Law of God upon the heart, it is the law of one's own - not only worthless, but to ones own destruction solely.

 

But as I always say, would there have been these myriards of debates about the Law of God had it not been for two of them -- the two the anti-christ has deleted from his version of it, the Second and the Fourth? I have personally never come accross any.

 

Ah, yes! Some years bring that knowledge the longer the more accute! I always say, the TC are the easy Law; the one I find just impossible and directly against my grain, is that BIG Law you are speaking of. I'll never reach the first step; thank God He judges me in and through Jesus Christ my Lord and my God!

 

I don't think you even read my post.

 

How does one spell relief? I ain't 'zackly sure, but I don't think it is "A-G-E-N-D-A". At least that is not how I spell it. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

Bro. Bob, BobRyan, Jim, Gerhard, et al. Sharpen your pencils. Like it or not, :laugh: :laugh: my promised posts will be along in the next two or three hours, after I do a couple of other things.

Ed

 

RE: Profess Jesus yet follow Moses - Part 1

I'll try and find some time to adequately answer you and to also comment on BobRyan's post, but that may not happen, as I am somewhat busy at the moment. However I can take the time to briefly respond to a couple of things.

First off, did you (and anyone else, for that matter) actually read what I previously wrote, or did you assume you already knew where I was heading? Just wonderin'. (And no, I'm not all hot and bothered, else I might be tempted "to write in red" or inject an icon like " " into the post, or put it on the message heading. I'm usually, and even now, so calm I'd write in blue, like so, except it is much harder to read. But I've not done any of that, except for illustration. Just so you and everyone else will know.) Anyway, you wrote:

Bob, most of what you have written here I fully agree with. However I still think it falls quite a bit short of what the NT teaches, especially after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and appearances, and will try and expound. And, also, I'll now give some serious answers, and I've already given the one that I found humerous, the previous "none of your business" gag. Let's proceed.
I am not even 'under' them, at all, in several senses, so in those senses, I am not breaking any of them. One needs to get the next few sentences, else one will probably not really understand what I'm saying, or going to be saying, at all. In the NT, to my knowledge, the exact words of "The Law" and/or "The commandments" almost always refer to the precepts found in the 'Mosaic code', with a few possible exceptions, where Jesus refers to something "written in the Law" and there refers to Scripture. (That is, of course, not the only way the Mosaic Law is referred to.) That is what I'm referring to by "the law", as well. The Mosaic Law was one unified whole. The so-called Moral Law or what we call the Ten Commandments; the religious or 'Ceremonial' Law; and the personal and/or family law known as the Civil Law are the three sub-components of this unified code. This code is 'composed' of "commandments, statutes, and judgments (or ordinances)" (Deut. 6:1) Neither Jesus, Scripture, not the law teachers of Jesus' day, recognized the "pre-eminence" of the Ten Commandments over the rest, at all. The opposite is the case, in fact. "The first and greatest commandment" is "The Shema"- "You shall love the LORD your God, with all your heart..."etc. found in Deut 6:5. "The second, like unto it" is "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." found in Lev. 19:18. "There are no commandments greater than these." And "On these two hang all the law and the prophets" are what Jesus said about them. I'll go with His opinion. So off we go! Just a sec, though. Understand that I am differentiating between "law" as a concept and the specific thing of "the law", - the 'Mosaic' Law, given by God, to Moses, for the children of Israel. But I am not drawing any distinction between the so-called "Ten Commandments" and the roughly 600 or so additional precepts found in the Mosaic law, for it is, as I already said, one unified code. Now! Off we go.

 

RE: Profess Jesus yet follow Moses - Part 2

A.) As a Gentile, I never 'had' them, in the first place. Paul recognizes this in Romans 2:14, which reads "for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves," (NKJV). "The Law", as in the Mosaic Law, Torah, or what have you, as to terminology, was given to and for Israel, and Israel only. Jesus recognized this, and in fact spoke to this when He spoke to the Pharisees in John 8:13-17 when he refers to "your law", referencing Num. 35:30. Pilate recognized that there was a difference, when Jesus was brought before him, when he said, "..."You take Him and judge Him according to your law."..." (John 18:31) And Gallio did as well, for he said, when Paul was brought before him, "...'its your law'- you handle it- 'cause I ain't getting involved!" (freely paraphrased, except for "your law" from Acts 18:12-17) And in fact, Israel did not even have it for 430 years, for it was added alongside of, and even then, did not serve to dis-annul, the covenant made with Abraham, and re-confirmed with both Isaac and Jacob.

 

RE: Profess Jesus yet follow Moses - Part 3

How much clearer can some of this be? Especially Galatians? Let's check out one more passage in this vein. At the 'church council' of Jerusalem, Peter asked the apostles and elders this question- regarding the precepts of the Mosaic Law

Almost 2000 years later, I ask this same question of most churches and most Christians, today, and even add "Why, indeed??" And before I get too far from this verse, contrary to what we often hear, we are not who is tested by "The Law". Today, The Law tests God, not us! (Acts 15:10)