I am starting a new topic to discuss in more detail a verse that we have discussed on the "How does a baby sin?" topic. At least on the surface, this verse appears to say that babies speak lies as soon as they are born. Some have suggested that this may be some kind of idiomatic or figurative reference to the sin nature. I guess it is also possible that one could argue that this only refers to the specific wicked judges that the psalmist is referencing. First, let's look at the verse. The wicked are what - estranged, made strange, gone away, alienated, separated. When does this occur - from the womb. They (who? the wicked) do what - go astray, err, wander off. When does this occur - as soon as they be born. In what way - speaking lies. The second sentence repeats and strengthens the case made in the first sentence. So - the wicked are alienated and start going astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. This does not keep it from being progressive. It does identify when it starts. The psalmist makes the case that an active going astray from God occurs at the moment of birth. Beginning to try to trace down any idiom in the verse, here a few initial notes: I found "as soon as" 32 times in the Old Testament, and it seems to always refer to something occuring immediately following another event. I found "they go astray" 3 times, and "speaking lies" only this once. This was only running the search in the KJV. Anyone have capability to do a computer search in the Hebrew? The teachings of other scriptural principles harmonize with this interpetation: 1. Death is a result of sin. Babies die. "In Adam all die." "The soul that sinneth it shall die." "...it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment." "The wages of sin is death." 2. The entire human race is corrupted and in sin. "There is none righteous, no not one..." "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." "The scripture hath concluded all under sin..." Babies are part of all. 3. All are BY NATURE the children of wrath. "...we...were by nature the children of wrath..." Babies possess the same nature as their parents. The NASB translation changes the word order a little and has "speak lies" as an adjective modifying "they" (telling who), instead of an adverb modifying "go astray" (telling how they go astray). Here it is: Even if one concludes that the NASB has the preferable translation, the fact still remains that the estrangement and going astray occurs from the womb (as soon as one is born). This is not just a passive possessing of a sin nature, but an active working of the sin nature.