Psalms 12:6-7

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by robycop3, Feb 2, 2005.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Another menber brought this up in another thread, but a discussion of it there would not have been consistent with that thread's topic...so let's discuss it here.

    Two of the most frequently-paraded KJVO claims are that Ps. 12:6 tells us that God's word has been purified seven times, culminating in the KJV. I strongly disagree, saying God's words are 100% pure whenever/wherever He has spoken them.

    However, the KJVO claim about V6 is wrong from the gitgo. Read the verse with care:

    Psalm 12:6, KJV The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times .

    It's easy to see that David is COMPARING God's words to silver that had been purified 7 times, which was a very high degree of purity even by today's standards. David is saying God's words ARE pure, not that they need purifying.

    The other claim is that V7 is about God's words. Even though an occasional commentator mentioned this earlier, it took the Wilkinson-Ray-Fuller line of KJVO false doctrines to make this idea widespread. However, it's just as bogus as their other claims.

    Psalm 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    This verse refers to the PEOPLE of V5. Now, while it may seem that David is skipping around in his thoughts, we must remember that these are the words of a SONG composed by David, and that he may have written the words in the Hebrew of his time in a manner to make the song more smooth or harmonious.

    The Geneva Bible reads "him", rather than "them" in this verse. The AV translators likely wrote "them" because the context of the first verses was about more than one person; there was more than just one poor person in Israel. These translators indicated they believed this verse was about people by their marginal note,"Heb. him, I. euery one of them". Thus, the KJVOs who support the idea this verse is about God's words are going against the very translators whose work they're supporting! They just don't see that if their assertion is true, the KJVO myth cannot be true, since there have been so many different English versions made over the centuries.

    YOUR thoughts, readers?
     
  2. 4His_glory

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    I agree, good post.

    Practically all the verse used by KJVO's are poorly interpreted and lack true exegisis. They have an incredible tendancey to use isegesis when interpreting the Scriptures in order to proof text their claims.
     
  3. Amity

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    I disagree. [​IMG]

    Actually, the NIV translators took that verse out of context.

    The Hebrew word "shamar" meaning "to keep" which the New International Version translators render "you will keep us" is found in the future second person singular "thou shalt keep" and is directed to the THIRD person plural "them" and NOT the first person plural "us" as the New International Version translators rendered it. Thus we see it is the King James which has accurately preserved the reading of the originals, not the unreliable New International Version.

    Psalm 12:7 is not God's promise to preserve the Jews, a promise which flourishes elsewhere in Scripture. It is God’s promise to preserve His words, and is a direct reference to those words as described in Psalm 12:6.
     
  4. Hotwheels

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    I 'm sorry! but i have a very narrow view of any other tran. other then a auth.K.J.V. mainly because the first thing that SATAN tries to do is wipe out the holy trinity of 2John. 5:7. this just will not due and the rest of the conversation would be nothing but a fight for me and I don't want to fight with other brothers in christ because that would be in direct conflict with the word of god.
     
  5. Amity

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    Welcome Hotwheels! I've read some of your posts here and I am happy to see you standing firm on the Word of God. Amen and God bless you.
     
  6. Hotwheels

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    Thanks I'm new to this kind of thing and am finding some of my responces in other places and don't know how they got there. and can't find the origenal group that i responded to to check for retorts
     
  7. Hotwheels

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  8. David J

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    Good post Roby!

    It all goes back to being able to understand Psalm 12 in context. KJVOist just hack away and pull verse 6-7 out in order to prove the myth of O'ism.

    Let's look at Psalm 12 as a whole and study it in context. A good way to get way off in doctrine is to take verses out of context without looking to see what God is saying fully in the passages. Our Charismatic brethren are guilty of this when they pull Acts out of context to support their odd teachings.

    Psa 12:1 [To the chiefe Musician vpon Sheminith. A Psalme of Dauid.] Helpe Lord, for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithfull faile from among the children of men.
    Psa 12:2 They speake vanitie euery one with his neighbour: with flattering lips, and with a double heart do they speake.
    Psa 12:3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things.
    Psa 12:4 Who haue said, with our tongue wil we preuaile, our lips are our owne: who is Lord ouer vs?
    Psa 12:5 For the oppression of the poore, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise (saith the Lord,) I will set him in safetie from him that puffeth at him.
    Psa 12:6 The wordes of the Lord are pure wordes: as siluer tried in a fornace of earth purified seuen times.
    Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keepe them, (O Lord,) thou shalt preserue them, from this generation for euer.
    Psa 12:8 The wicked walke on euery side, when the vilest men are exalted.

    1611 KJV

    For those who do not have a real AV1611 it has a marginal note that says “him” in verse 7.

    And compare it to the older Geneva Bible 1599:

    Psa 12:1 To him that excelleth upon the eight tune. A Psalme of Dauid. Helpe Lord, for there is not a godly man left: for the faithfull are fayled from among the children of men.
    Psa 12:2 They speake deceitfully euery one with his neighbour, flattering with their lips, and speake with a double heart.
    Psa 12:3 The Lord cut off all flattering lippes, and the tongue that speaketh proude things:
    Psa 12:4 Which haue saide, With our tongue will we preuaile: our lippes are our owne: who is Lord ouer vs?
    Psa 12:5 Now for the oppression of the needy, and for the sighes of the poore, I will vp, sayeth the Lord, and will set at libertie him, whom the wicked hath snared.
    Psa 12:6 The wordes of the Lord are pure wordes, as the siluer, tried in a fornace of earth, fined seuen folde.
    Psa 12:7 Thou wilt keepe them, O Lord: thou wilt preserue him from this generation for euer.
    Psa 12:8 The wicked walke on euery side: when they are exalted, it is a shame for the sonnes of men.

    Why did the Geneva Bible say “him” in verse 7?

    The answer is very simple. The translators of the Geneva Bible and the KJV understood what God was saying in Psalm 12. In context Psalm 12 can not be what KJVOist claim it means.

    If KJVOist are right about Psalm 12:6-7 then God must have broken His word since there are no preserved word for word translations prior to 1611 that lines up with the KJV(pick your flavor:1611-1873). This KJVO defense line actually undermines the whole KJVO myth for us.

    It's hard for KJVOist to defend the Psalm 12:6-7 myth when Psalm 12 is read in context. Once again the 1611 KJV destroys the KJVO lie.

    Then again so many KJVOist have problems with context anyway [​IMG] So I guess the AV1611 was wrong to put "him" in the marginal notes and cast doubts on the KJVO myth!

    Sigh....those bible correcting AV1611 translators LOL! [​IMG]
     
  9. HankD

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    It's 1 John 5:7 Hotwheels and does that mean you put your stamp of approval on the NKJV Modern Version since it includes this verse?

    HankD
     
  10. KeithS

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    Been a while since I looked at Hebrew poetry, but it looks to me like the Psalm in question is inverted parallelism (chiasmus). I think I have the technical terms corrrect - but the point is the main ideas in part A are repeated in reverse order in part B.

    If this observation is correct: 1) the Words of Lord are compared to the words of the wicked and 2) the thing being preserved (the godly) are compared to thing being cut off (the wicked). It seems this interpretation would not allow the passage in question to be referring to Scripture.

    Perhaps someone more versed in Hebrew poetry could verify if these observations are correct.

    PartA
    A 1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

    2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

    B 3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

    C 4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

    D 5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD;

    PartB
    D1 I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

    C1 6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    B1 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    A1 8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
     
  11. Hotwheels

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    to HankD

    Your right it is 1john that was a type'o on my part. next I Don't Know I've never read any other Bible as far as what the Baptist call the holy bible. most of the new translations for the modern age church christ is down played, his lordship and being complete creator of everything that is is downplayed and so on.
    if your nkjv has kept that that is good for you!
    I see no need to change bibles (as most people do)because they didn't understand it when they read it. some should probebly check into their own salvation because the word of god says that you are taught by the holy spirit. instead of praying that god open the word to the and feed them from the bread of life they say there's something wrong with the bible and look for another trans.

    Now onto David]

    the term in this case with him or them is the same. God (or david inspired by god(and david wasn't stupid )) delivers us or you (see the coralation ) those that are his Saved people from the snares of this world or from the advisary how ever you want to look at it.
    Also that in ver.5. had nothing to do with the topic of ver.6-7 :eek:
     
  12. Hotwheels

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    Maybe I misunderstand some of you.
    I've got a 1611 auth. ver. K.J.Bible - thompson chain ref. and a scofield even though I don't agree with all the scofield ref. or all the thompson ref. Am I the only person that finds this to be the word of god? [​IMG]
     
  13. TC

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    If your KJV doesn't have the apocrapha between the OT and the NT, you don't have a true 1611 KJV. You probably have the 1769 revision done by Benjamin Blaney.

    I have a Scofield (old one) KJV and I find it to be the Word of God. I have a NKJV and I find it to be the Word of God. I have a HCSB and I find it to be the Word of God. I have a NASB and I find it to be the Word of God.

    Now, back to the topic. Psalm 12 before verse 6 is about people and after 7 is about people. Verse 6 and 7 show that God's promise to protect righteous people can be trusted because His words are pure. Hence, verse 6-7 is also about people. The unity of the chapter is upheld when whole passage is read in context. [​IMG]
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    You probably are one of the few who uses a KJV1611 -

    "Psa 12:1 [To the chiefe Musician vpon Sheminith. A Psalme of Dauid.] Helpe Lord, for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithfull faile from among the children of men.
    Psa 12:2 They speake vanitie euery one with his neighbour: with flattering lips, and with a double heart do they speake.
    Psa 12:3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things.
    Psa 12:4 Who haue said, with our tongue wil we preuaile, our lips are our owne: who is Lord ouer vs?
    Psa 12:5 For the oppression of the poore, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise (saith the Lord,) I will set him in safetie from him that puffeth at him.
    Psa 12:6 The wordes of the Lord are pure wordes: as siluer tried in a fornace of earth purified seuen times.
    Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keepe them, (O Lord,) thou shalt preserue them, from this generation for euer.
    Psa 12:8 The wicked walke on euery side, when the vilest men are exalted. "

    [ February 02, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  15. natters

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    Of course not. We all believe the KJV is the word of God. Most of us simply don't believe the KJV is the only word of God, because that would mean that the word of God did not exist for the first 80% of church history.
     
  16. Amity

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    no, you're not the only one. but there are several members here that think the modern versions are just as good (or that the KJB has just as many errors as the modern versions).

    I'll stick with my KJB, TYVM. [​IMG]
     
  17. natters

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    Very interesting post, KeithS! Finally something fresh to consider in this issue. [​IMG]
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Amity and Hotwheels - understanding English helps. Even the AV1611 has antecedents for pronouns and rules of grammar.

    A person may believe the AV1611 is the only Bible (wrong) and still read this passage correctly in the AV1611 language and understand it is speaking of the preservation of God's people, not a piece of paper.

    This is a nagging problem I have with the "only sect". They miss the meanings NOT because they don't know Greek/Hebrew, but because they don't know English! :eek:

    Psalm 12 has nothing to do with the issue of God preserving His Word. And we are all still looking for a verse that says God will preserve His Word in English to replace the Greek/Hebrew. [​IMG]
     
  19. KeithS

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    As I recall, the point of chiasmus was to emphasize the center of the parallelism - in this case D and D1. So the point of emphasis in the Psalm is verse 5: The Lord will set in safety those who are oppressed. This is in answer to the plea in verse 1 because of the wicked in verse 8 who will be preseved in verse 7 from those being cut off in verse 3 because the Lords words are true (pure) in verse 6, not like the words of the wicked who want to be lord in verse 4. Now that's a mouthful. [​IMG]
     
  20. Bro Tony

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    Not to muddy the water too much, but if Psalm 12 was speaking of the Word of God, it still would not support the false belief of KJVO. There was not KJV when the verse was penned and it did not exist until 1611, what would have been the preserved Word prior to then? In saying all this I agree with the others that this verse is speaking of preserving the people of God.

    Bro Tony
     

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