Purgatory, Foundation

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by servant4him, Jul 16, 2003.

  1. servant4him

    servant4him
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    I have heard from a Catholc before that in Purgatory, humans will have no sense of time, therefore purgatory is instant, correct? We wouldnt realize that purgatory is happening, so why do you spend so much time trying to work off sins that supposedly make you spend more time there, when you say there is no time. If what I hear is true, then you are telling me that purgatory isn't real. Also, as most know, the Pope is supposed to be a direct desendant of St.Peter. If this is true, why do you see him perfect in your eyes? Peter sinned many, many times. Therefore, he passes down original sin to the Pope. The Pope I'm sure has to confess sins, and though you don't admit it, I know that Catholics believe him to be perfect. He is surely a God loving man, but we all are. Everyone that believes and worships Him are God loving people.
    So what makes the Pope so perfect? St.Peter denied Christ 3 times before dawn. The Pope is not perfect, and does sin, as all of us do. I want to know why you think Purgatory and the Pope being perfect are real. And please don't say that you don't think the Pope is perfect, because I have heard from Catholics before that you believe he is.

    God Bless,
    Brady
     
  2. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    Not correct. There is no teaching of the Church concerning this. We will have to wait and see.
    Sorry, I know you asked me not to say it, but the Pope is not perfect. The Pope sins as we all do and the Pope does in deed go to confession.

    No Catholic that I know or have ever known thinks that the Pope is perfect.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The ENTIRE system of indulgences deals with the subject of SHORTENING the stay in purgatory or ENDING the stay in purgatory (Plenary indulgence) -

    If Purgatory was "NON TIME" so that one second after your loved once death ALL their non-TIME in purgatory was long passed - there would be NO basis for SHORTENING that time by working to EARN indulgences for them.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Hi Bob! It's been a while!

    Anyway, you said:

    First of all, there is confusion, even among Catholics, about "shortening our time" in purgatory, when what it refers to is the "time of temporal penance" one would have received here on earth as a restitution to God for the sins confessed in the confessional. In other words, a priest, in those early times, may give a penance of "so many hours or days of reflective prayer." It has nothing to do at all to how long we may be in purgatory, which has no time flow. Thus to say, this is an "indulgence of 100 days" it to say it is equivalant to a 100 day penance that may normally be awarded by a priest in the confessional. A plenary indulgence removes all time related equivalant penances.

    On the other hand, we conceptualize the "purging" that goes on in purgatory as to "how long we stay there" (i.e., a period of time in punishment, as in an earthly prison), only because that is the only way we can describe it.

    I know this sounds a little odd to you, not knowing the "mechanisms" that surround the sacrament of penance in the Catholic Church, but for a scriptural basis, we start with John 20:22-23.

    Not trying to be confrontational, just a bit of information for you...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
  5. Singer

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    Otherwise, when there's no biblical basis,.......... just make up the rules
    as we go along, and if it sounds confusing, just accept it as truth as the
    decrees come down from less than perfect men (sinners) who occupy the
    Vatican. Need a rule? I can do that . VAT - I - CAN . See how that works?
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002
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    Perhaps this might help you understand Purgatory. Servant4Him, more question you might have will be answered for you at this sight. http://olrl.org/apologetics/cathansr.html#ans21

    In Christ,
    Georgia


    Why do Catholics believe in a place between Heaven and Hell called Purgatory? Where is Purgatory mentioned in the Bible?

    The main body of Christians have always believed in the exist ence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and to repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. Even after Moses was forgiven by God, he was still punished for his sin. (2 Kg. or 2 Sam. 12:13-14). The primitive Church Fathers regarded the doctrine of Purgatory as one of the basic tenets of the Christian faith. St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory "has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church." True, the word "Purgatory" does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved "yet so as by fire," is mentioned (1 Cor. 3:15). Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them "the church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them "the spirits of the just made perfect." (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: "Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." (Matt. 5 :26). And: "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36). These are obviously references to Purgatory. Further, the Second Book of Machabees (which was dropped from the Scriptures by the Protestant Reformers) says: "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Mach. 12:46). Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the second and third centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. In fact, the custom of praying for the dead -- which is meaningless if there is no Purgatory -- was universal among Christians for the fifteen centuries preceding the Protestant Reformation. Furthermore, ordinary justice calls for a place of purgation between Heaven and Hell. Take our own courts of justice, for example. For major crimes a person is executed or sentenced to life imprisonment (Hell); for minor crimes a person is sentenced to temporary imprisonment for punishment and rehabilitation (Purgatory); for no crime at all a person is rewarded with the blessing of free citizenship (Heaven). If a thief steals some money, then regrets his deed and asks the victim for forgiveness, it is quite just for the victim to forgive him yet still insist on restitution. God, who is infinitely just, insists on holy restitution. This is made either in this life, by doing penance (Matt. 3:2; Luke 3:8, 13:3; Apoc. 3:2-3, 19), or in Purgatory. Also, what Christian is there who, despite his faith in Christ and his sincere attempts to be Christlike, does not find sin and worldliness still in his heart? "For in many things we all offend." (James 3:2). Yet "there shall not enter into it [the new Jerusalem, Heaven] anything defiled." (Apoc. or Rev. 21:27). In Purgatory the soul is mercifully purified of all stain; there God carries out the work of spiritual purification which most Christians neglected and resisted on earth. It is important to remember that Catholics do not believe that Christ simply covers over their sinful souls, like covering a manure heap with a blanket of snow (Martin Luther's description of God's forgiveness). Rather, Christ insists that we be truly holy and sinless to the core of our souls. "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt. 5:48). This growth in sinlessness -- in Christian virtue and holiness -- is of course the work of an entire lifetime (and is possible only through the grace of God). With many this cleansing is completed only in Purgatory. If there is no Purgatory, but o


    Pls continue here..
    http://olrl.org/apologetics/cathansr.html#ans21
     
  7. John Gilmore

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    Lutherans also retain private confession according to the promise of the gospel in John 20:23 and in Matt. 18:18. Our ministers freely forgive sins just as Christ freely forgave sins during His ministry on earth. From Luther's Small Catechism, a brief form of confession:

     
  8. BobRyan

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    #1. I did not see anything about "non-time in purgatory" in John 20:22-23.

    #2. I did not see any mention at all of a "place that is not heaven and not hell" where the saints go to suffer for their sins after death in ANY of the texts mentioned in the posts above.

    What am I missing? Do you simply "make it up"?

    #3. IF our TIME - is "longer" than the non-Time of Purgatory - THEN by the time you get around to "earning" even one indulgence for you loved one suffering in "non-time" many eternities of "non-time" will have passed. You are already "too late". For in each passing second - there is an infinite amount of "non-time" by definition.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    No, but you do see the basis of Jesus giving the power to a priest to forgive or retain sins! [​IMG]

    I mentioned this because in the early church, a penance imposed by a priest was often specified in days of accomplishment, for example, "Go and give a special contribution to the poor for the next 100 days" or "abstain from relations with your wife for 60 days" (not imposed recently in modern times!)

    Consider the following scripture quotes:

    Purgatory

    The Bible commends the practice of praying for the dead.

    2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
    to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."

    Realizing that you do not accept the deuterocanonicals as OT canon, if there is no further purging after death, why pray for ones who are either in heaven, where no prayers are necessary, or in hell, where such prayers would do no good?

    The following passages indicate the existence of purgatory.

    Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
    of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
    against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
    this world, nor in the world to come."

    The implication is, there are sins that can indeed be forgiven "in the world to come."

    Luke 12:58-59 "And when thou goest with thy adversary to the
    prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered
    from him: lest he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver
    thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I
    say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the
    very last mite."

    Jesus compares an earthly prison with a spiritual prison, where one goes "until thou pay the very last mite."

    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be manifest; for
    the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be
    revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of
    what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built
    thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he
    shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by
    fire."

    Where is this "loss" suffered? Not in heaven, as that is the place of complete joy! Not in hell, as once you are there, one cannot "be saved."

    1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
    just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
    death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
    also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison."

    A slightly different "prison" but one that existed outside of both heaven and hell.

    You are trying to understand something none of can understand, Bob. I have no idea how this occurs until I witness it in the spiritual realm.

    It's kinda like my trying to understand the "particular judgment" (and I am not sure this is believed in SdA) that we all endure at our death, being judged immediately when we die, compared to the General Judgment at the end of the world, where we all come forth to be judged all together.

    I have wondered, is the particular judgment one and the same with the General Judgment? In other words, when I die, will I then immediately be standing besides Abraham and Moses, (saints of the past and the OT) as well as saints who have died 1000 years after my death, standing before the throne of God?

    We simply don't know. It has not been revealed how this is done.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  10. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you, John. I did understand that Lutherens believed this as well, as well as the "high" Church of England and the Orthodox Church.

    Are there any other Christian communities that believe this?

    God bless,

    PAX

    Rome has spoken, case is closed.

    Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    'Rome has spoken, case is closed.'

    Why has Rome handed out God's alleged truth piece-meal? One would have thought that truth was eternal and would have been important and relative to the earliest of Christians.

    The Bible has become to you the 'guide of the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes.' [Romans 2:18]
     
  12. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Like my "tagline" as well, huh? [​IMG]

    What was revealed to the early Christians was apparently "sufficient" for them to come to Christ and be saved.

    As time went on, and as heresies abounded, the Church had to go into it's own magisterium and the scripture to refine what truth is in more detail.

    The TRINITY is an excellant example, not defined until it was challenged, which the Church then refined into the doctrine we have today.

    Who me?

    And all this time, the freely proclaimed "intrepret it for yourself" mentality of Protestantism, in their doctrine of Sola Scriptura has done nothing but cause a dissident Christianity to fragment all the more!

    So who is "foolish" here? I am not the smartest guy in the world, but I looked for the only "authority" around who gathered together the very scriptures you hold in your hot little hands, including the deuterocanonicals in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament, which the early Christians favored, and then was the only authority that compiled, canonized and declared as divinely inspired, that very same bible wiht the New Testament!

    That process began in the 3rd century, about 200 + years afterPentecost, that the Christians could finally have in their hands and read ( for those who could read and spend a fortune to have a hand-written copy of the scriptures, rarely all in one piece, that is.)

    How did those early Christians receive the gospel before the Bible was available for everyone?

    The pulpit!

    The oral gospel, given by a priest at Mass, and pictorially, through the scenes depicted by the stain glass windows, when churches began to be constructed for worship!

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    "If we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to FORGIVE US our sins AND to cleanse US from ALL unrighteousness" 1John 1:9



    "Our Father who is in Heaven... FORGIVE US OUR sins..." Matt 6:12.



    "Let Us come BOLDLY before the throne of Grace" due to the ministry of our ONE High Priest
    - Heb 4:14-16.

    Direct and immediate forgiveness of sins is the only model that scripture gives. Never do we see any Christian going to a single NT saint and saying "please ask God to forgive me - because you are my best and only source of forgiveness"

    Rather Christ declared that "IN HIS NAME" forgiveness of sins was to be "proclaimed" and that this was the "mission" of His followers - to proclaim that message (Luke 24:47)

    This leaves no room for reworking the text of John 20 to mean "you need to go to someone other than Christ for forgiveness of sins".

    And none of this speaks to going to someone else - to get forgiveness for a dead ancestor's sins.

    #1. That is not scripture.

    #2. It says nothing about the dead suffering while dead.

    #3. The people being prayed for are guilty of mortal sin AND the text SAYS that the "reason" they are dead is a direct judgment of God on their mortal sin of idolatry - so EVEN the RCC would not admit them into Purgatory.

    #4. That chapter ALSO says that the ONLY benefit of that prayer was with respect to the resurrection and that WITHOUT that resurrection event - the prayer was not doing anything - it was meaningless.

    And "this" from a non-inspired writer - who sees clearly that there is no "benefit" from the prayer while the person is dead.

    #1 Chapter 12 explicitly says the prayer was worthless for that point - it says that ONLY in the event of the resurrection of the dead - could that prayer have any value at all.

    A point about that text that the RC position is not comfortable with.


    What you "needed" was a text that said "If someone commits THIS kind of sin it will NOT be forgiven him in THIS world but WILL be forgiven in the world to come".

    You "also needed" a text that said "The world to come happens BEFORE the resurrection of the righteous".

    You have none of that - although that would address the salient point of your argument - that critical section that needs to be "proved" rather than "assumed".

    #1. Nothing about that future prison - indicates that it is NOT the punishment of the wicked described in Rev 20, in Rev 21, in Rev 14:10, in Matt 10:28

    What you "needed" was a "punishment of the saints" text stating that the saints are "punished in prison after they die - and then they go to heaven".

    No such text in all of scripture.

    #1. The "Day of the Lord" is not a reference to the period between death and resurrection in all of scripture.

    #2. The text never says that the PERSON is tried in fire or burned in fire.

    #3. Chapter 3 of 1Cor 3 deals with the "teaching" of various Christian teachers and asserts strongly that "Christ is the ONE foundation of the church" and that "NO OTHER foundation can be laid" by any teacher. It then goes on to describe the TEACHING of the various evangelists as their work - and shows that it is their TEACHING that is tried and burned acccording to its "value".

    Never "the person" as much as the RC doctrines "needed" it to get the "person burned and tried" it is "only the teaching" the works.

    The "prison of death" and the "captives set free" by Christ is a reference to death itself.

    However the text of 1Peter 3 deals ONLY with "Those who once WERE disobedient WHEN the patience of God KEPT WAITING IN the days of Noah, DURING the construction of the ark"

    The argument is that "The spirit of Christ" ministering to those in the OT (1Peter 1:11) was also preaching to the wicke IN the days of Noah DURING the construction of the Ark.

    This can not be taken as a reference to people now being tormented in purgatory.

    This is simply showing that the RC words that have been "made up" to prop up purgatory "don't make sense".

    #1. You will not "experience" any judgment - until you are no longer considered by God to be "Asleep".


    "And a number of you sleep"
    1Cor 11:30.


    "We shall not all sleep - but we shall all be changed"
    1Cor 15:51


    "Even so God will bring with HIM those WHO HAVE fallen ASLEEP IN Jesus"
    1Thess 4:14

    There is but one judgment for each person after death "For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9:27

    It is at the Rev 20 great white throne judgment that mankind is tossed into the Lake of Fire.

    This is the second death.

    [/quote]
     
  14. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    WPutnam,

    Confession in the churches is not abolished among us; for it is not usual to give the body of the Lord, except to them that have been previously examined and absolved. And the people are most carefully taught concerning faith in the absolution, about which formerly there was profound silence. Our people are taught that they should highly prize the absolution, as being the voice of God, and pronounced by God's command. The power of the Keys is set forth in its beauty and they are reminded what great consolation it brings to anxious consciences, also, that God requires faith to believe such absolution as a voice sounding from heaven, and that such faith in Christ truly obtains and receives the forgiveness of sins. Aforetime satisfactions were immoderately extolled; of faith and the merit of Christ and the righteousness of faith no mention was made. Augsburg Confession, Of Confession, 1530
     
  15. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    Wputnam,

    Private confession and absolution is in decline in many Lutheran churches despite the words of the Augsburg Confession. Factors include doctrinal contamination from Protestantism, the inclusion of a general absolution in the new liturgies, and poor catechism instruction. I was wondering if Roman Catholicism is also affected by this trend and, if so, do you see similar factors at work or others?
     
  16. Logan

    Logan
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    Greetings Bob Ryan:

    Regarding this Scripture:

    You stated:

    Lets take a look at this 'judgment' according to the text. It says our works will go througha 'fire' of sorts. In Scripture, 'fire' is used figutatively in two ways: as a purifying agent (Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49), and as that which consumes (Matthew 3:12 and 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God's judgment. Some of these "works" are being burned up and some are being purified. These works are burned in accordance with "the quality' hopoiov they are. It is not heaven, because there are no imperfections there that need to be burned up (Revelation 21:27). As Bill said it is not hell because the people are "saved."

    First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works? If these works were not sins and imperfections, why would they need to be cleansed? Second, it is impossible for a "work" to be cleansed apart from a human person. We are talking about human character. We are what we do when it comes to our moral choices. If a person commits adultery, he or she is an adulterer.

    Can you imagine a work floating around somewhere detached from a person that could be cleansed apart form the person? The idea of works being seperated from a person does not make sense. But more importantly, it contradicts the text. The text says the works will be tested by fire, but "if the work survives...he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss."
    Obviously, this is real suffering and real loss that he experiences. Why? Because you cannot seperate a man's work from the man.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Fortunately we do not need to "imagine" what kind of works are identified in 1Cor 3. Rather - it is there In the text. We see the contrast between the TEACHING of the evangelists.

    We are told that "One plants, one waters but God brings the increase" 1cor 3: 4-9 and "the workers" are defined in that context setting statement for the chapter. Impossible to miss.

    Impossible to "leave that explicit statement" about the "Work" of the "Workers" as explicitly stated - and go off into some "other realm needed for Purgatory" leaving the issue of Apollos and Paul and their teaching and their roles as "workers" without question. You can "read it in the text".

    But the RCC "needs" something else here. It "needs" us to ignore the context of evangelists "teaching" and basing their teaching effectively on the Foundation for the church - Christ ALONE "NO OTHER foundation can anyon lay".

    And instead - the RCC needs us to view this as saints - who die and then go to non-heaven and "suffer" THEMSELVES rather than their teaching being tested by God and cut away from the church - it is the SAINT that is being "BURNED". In the text (In the failing case) it is the TEACHING that does not survive but the SAINT is just fine. In the RCC view - that thing that is burned is the SAINT.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Bob Ryan replied, where I replied to your last:


    Of course! [​IMG]

    We Catholics call this "making an act of contrition" to God for forgiveness! I do this immediately if I were to suddenly sin, say like taking the Lord's name in vain in sudden anger or similar sin. But you have yet to analyze for me, John 20:22-23! Put on your best "SdA" hat, and exegete that for me.

    Again, do a very careful study of John 20:22-23 and give my your best exegesis of those verses. As you do this, you may want to consider the immediate context of what Jesus says when He immediately appeared to the apostles, through a locked door, to say this to them.

    I totally and completely disagree with your assertion that you see the "only model that scripture gives" when John 20:22-23 is staring you right in the face! And you have yet to see one thing from me about that scripture as I have yet to give you my exegesis! I want to see yours first! [​IMG]


    [qiuote]And none of this speaks to going to someone else - to get forgiveness for a dead ancestor's sins.</font>[/QUOTE]When time permits, I will show how this is implied in the scripture quotes I provided earlier on this.

    Bob previously said:

    And I previously provided these quotes from scripture:

    Purgatory

    The Bible commends the practice of praying for the dead.

    2 Maccabees 12:46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought
    to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins."


    Which is why I put is separate from the others. But for 1500 years of Church history, 2 Maccabees was considered scripture, since it came from the Greek Septuagint which the early Christians favored. And which was declared as scripture by at least 3 church synods in the later 3rd century.

    It was only in the time of the so called "Protestant Reformation" that the deuterocanonicals were removed by the Protestants.

    By what authority did they have to do that, Bob?


    Did you see my comments about a "spiritual prison" in the quotes I gave? Perhaps later, when you cover that quote…

    Hummmm, the Maccabees quote? Yes, the amulets honoring idols they were wearing on their uniforms. But then, how involved were they in the worship of idols when it may have been a uniform requirement to wear them? Also, even while they may have all been condemned to hell, where prayers for them would not be effective, we do not know that, do we? In other words, they give the dead the benefit of the doubt and are prayed for nevertheless. Are the prayers wasted? No, I think God sees the merit in our being concerned for others, even if they are dead.

    How do you know that, Bob? I pray for the repose of the soul of my deceased father. If he is in heaven, then the benefits of those prayers can go to those in need of them, but if he is in hell, again, the prayers would benefit others not in hell, but still in purgatory. In fact, that is the way I couch my prayers - to benefit others if it will not benefit the principle subject of my prayers.

    If you are speaking of 2 Maccabees again, the only Church around with authority has declared the author to have been divinely inspired. And that was believed for the first 1500 years of the Church's existence.

    Realizing that you do not accept the deuterocanonicals as OT canon, if there is no further purging after death, why pray for ones who are either in heaven, where no prayers are necessary, or in hell, where such prayers would do no good?

    Chapter 12 where? 2 Maccabees? Do you mind quoting the verse(s) I do see the following verse:

    "for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death." (verse 44) Indeed so! But if you go on and read "But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought." (verse 45)

    Therefore Judas here believed in a forgiveness of sins after death!

    Not to this Catholic! And I have certainly not heard of an "uncomfortable" view of this chapter at all, ever!

    I previously said:

    The following passages indicate the existence of purgatory.

    Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son
    of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak
    against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in
    this world, nor in the world to come."

    The implication is, there are sins that can indeed be forgiven "in the world to come."


    That does not make sense at all, because if the sin is forgiven in this world, logic says that it is not necessary for a forgiveness be granted to it in the spiritual world, it already being forgiven! If I am in the "State of Grace" and I have no sin on my soul, including the restitution/penance needed for restitution for the sins forgiven, I go straight to heaven when I die! Reminds me of the old Monopoly Game: "Go past purgatory and go straight to heaven!" [​IMG]

    You don't believe in the particular judgment, do you, Bob?

    Where did the good thief go when Christ said, "On this day, you will be with me in paradise."? The day after the "on this day," Christ was still in the tomb. The 3rd day, He rose from the dead. Where was the good thief them?

    I am assuming nothing. But logic tells me that if a sin is pointed out to be so serious as not to be forgivable in the world to come, there must be lesser sins that can be forgiven even them.

    Did I ever tell you about 1 John 5:16-17 where the two types of sins are discussed? Sins that are "deadly" and not forgiven here on earth, certainly will not be forgiven in the spiritual realm, will they? What about the sins we may die with that are not "deadly"?

    Luke 12:58-59 "And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince,
    whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered from him: lest he
    draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the
    exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence,
    until thou pay the very last mite."

    Jesus compares an earthly prison with a spiritual prison, where one goes "until thou pay the very last mite."


    Then what prison is Christ speaking of? Christ always relates events here on earth, such as going to an earthly prison, to some sort of a parallel in the spiritual life. Also, do me a favor and exegete the quotes you give in regards to the "prison" I am speaking of.

    I tell you what, Bob, read the Luke quote above again, and you tell me what it is talking about. What is the "prison" Jesus is talking about here.

    I last said:

    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 "Every man's work shall be manifest; for
    the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be
    revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of
    what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built
    thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he
    shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by
    fire."

    Where is this "loss" suffered? Not in heaven, as that is the place of complete joy! Not in hell, as once you are there, one cannot "be saved."


    What is the "day of the Lord" for an individual man, Bob? He speaks of "every man," thus it is something exclusive to him, don't you think?

    No, it is his WORKS that are tried and "revealed in fire." But who "suffers loss" here, Bob? Also, if his works "abide" "he shall receive a reward" So for all intents and purposes, it results in the man Christ speaks of that is tried.

    (Continued in next post)
     
  19. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    (Continued from previous post)

    So what? If they practice a bad teaching, is that not to be burned as a poor works, yet the individual is saved even while he "suffers a loss"?

    Are you saying that the lay person, not a minister of evangelist, will not suffer the same scrutiny before the Lord as His or her death? Do you and I also have "works" that will be tested, "as if by fire"?

    I previously said:

    1 Peter 3:18-19 "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the
    just for the unjust; that he might offer us to God, being put to
    death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit. In which
    also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison."

    A slightly different "prison" but one that existed outside of both heaven and hell.


    Ah, Bob, if indeed, these souls were the ones who were disobedient as you say, then precisely where is it that they are sequestered that Christ goes to visit them? But if you read carefully verse 20, Peter speak of "eight people in all" were saved! That means that the disobedient souls you speak of were therefore condemned not being saved at all, as the eight were!

    Therefore, the only souls that Peter could have been speaking of were the sequestered righteous souls of the Old Testament saints that had to wait for the Messiah to come and rescue them by the cross so that the gates of heaven, closed due to the original sin, opens one more for them to be rescued!

    One of these days, we may discuss verse 21, where we see Peter describes the water that "saved the eight" as a prefigurement of baptism which saves you now. But that is for another day… [​IMG]

    I'm sorry but I do not understand your reference of 1 Peter 1:11 to 1 Peter 3:18-19.
    Bob previously said:

    IF our TIME - is "longer" than the non-Time of Purgatory - THEN by the time you get around to "earning" even one indulgence for you loved one suffering in "non-time" many eternities of "non-time" will have passed. You are already "too late". For in each passing second - there is an infinite amount of "non-time" by definition.

    This is simply showing that the RC words that have been "made up" to prop up purgatory "don't make sense".


    And I previously responded:

    You are trying to understand something none of can understand, Bob. I have no idea how this occurs until I witness it in the spiritual realm.
    It's kinda like my trying to understand the "particular judgment" (and I am not sure this is believed in SdA) that we all endure at our death, being judged immediately when we die, compared to the General Judgment at the end of the world, where we all come forth to be judged all together.

    I have wondered, is the particular judgment one and the same with the General Judgment? In other words, when I die, will I then immediately be standing besides Abraham and Moses, (saints of the past and the OT) as well as saints who have died 1000 years after my death, standing before the throne of God?

    We simply don't know. It has not been revealed how this is done.


    And his most recent reply is:

    Ah, Bob, here is what my Catholic New American Bible (NAB) says in that verse:
    "That is why many of you are ill and infirm and a considerable number are dying."
    And my Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB), which scholars considers to be one of the best translations to date going back to the oldest scraps of ancient manuscripts found, has nearly the same rendering:

    "That is why many of you are weak and ill and a good number have died."

    And why is this condition existing when Paul wrote that? Read the two verses ahead of it:
    "Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup; because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation." (verses 28 and 29 - British spelling in the NJB.)

    It is obvious that "falling asleep" (probably from the KJV) simply means to become lax in the faith; to slide back into complacency and even abuses, such as what Paul speaks about when partaking of the holy Eucharist unworthily. It is not a condition after we die, awaiting the general resurrection at the end of the world, else why would verse 30 speak of this "falling asleep" (i.e., becoming "weak and ill") in the faith that would result in death (which I see here is not actual physical death but a relapse into a condition of non-faith and a return to the sins prior to a Christian conversion.)
    Now here, the word "sleep" is found in my NAB and my NJB, and can be seen as a euphemism for death; having died; in the grave, since Paul expected that some of his contemporaries might still be alive at Christ's second coming.
    But what is exactly meant by "sleep" in this case? We read that "the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (verse 52) This continues until we read the beautiful:

    "Death is swallowed up in victory.
    Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?


    Is the good thief on the cross still "asleep," awaiting this event, or is he now in heaven as Christ promised; "this day you will be with me in paradise"?

    Again, the word "sleep" is nothing more then an euphemism for death, just as the phrase, "John recently passed away" is a euphemism, softening the finality of the stark and harsh reality of the word - death.

    Death obviously precedes the time of judgment. First comes death and then the judgment. But when one dies and enters the spiritual realm, there is no time. Thus the judgment occurs within the first nanosecond (if it could even be measured) of one's death. There is not one scintilla of a suggestion that ones moulders in the grave until the time of the end of the world, sorta like being in a suspended state in time when the soul, which has obviously departed the decaying body, must lie in the spiritual state where there is no time flow.

    And all this time, I thought Heb. 9:27 said "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die"!
    I gotta look more closely into the "soul sleep" business, but so far, I reject it comply out of hand and just another "fruit" of Sola Scriptura that has been multiplying since the days of the so called "Protestant Reformation." And as a Protestant (Church of the Nazarene, good and wonderful people they are) I saw this awful sea of confusion Luther had wrought. So I looked for the beginnings of the faith and found the source of the truth of Christ's gospel.

    And when I did that, I found His Church…

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    "Gloria in excelsis Deo"
    (Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)
    (The choir response.)
    Et in terra pax homininus
    bone voluntatis
    Laudamus te
    Benedicimus te
    Adoramus te
    Glorificamus te,
    Gratias agimus tibi propter
    magnum gloriam tuum.
    Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
    Deus Pater omnipotens
    Domine Fili unigenite
    Jesu Christe Domine Deus
    Agnus Dei Filius Patris
    Qui tollis peccata mundi
    miserere nobis.
    Qui tollis peccata mundi,
    suscipe deprecationem nostram.
    Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
    miserere nobis.
    Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
    Tu solus Dominus
    Tu solus Altissimus
    Jesu Christe.
    Cum Sancto Spiritu
    in gloria Dei Patris
    Amen.

    - The Ambrosian Gloria -
    http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram
    (Real monks chanting....)
    Gregorian Chant - God's music! [​IMG]
     
  20. John Gilmore

    John Gilmore
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    I also began in the Church of the Nazarene but I found the true visible church of God on earth. The Evangelical Lutheran Church has been singing the "Gloria in excelsis Deo" since 1530. Here is a version of the Gloria from the 1549 Anglican Book of Common Prayer that is still in use in English-speaking Lutheran churches (only with modern spelling):

     

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