Question – What is your FINAL Authority?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by AVBunyan, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    I was just curious. What is your FINAL authority in all matters of faith and practice? I see that many folks use a lot of sources such as, versions, Greek/Hebrew, etc. and I’m not here to find fault with using whatever one feels led to use in order to understand what God is saying to him. But when it gets down to the knitty gritty what is your absolute FINAL authority? You don’t have to respond but if you do it would be interesting to me.

    Now I expect several responses:
    1. One will most likely say, “God is my final authority.” Well, that is fine but be more specific please. How do you know what God is saying? I believe God speaks through his word. Many today believe he speaks directly but I feel there was a time when God did but not anymore – unless you are charismatic.

    2. One may say, “The ‘Bible’ is my final authority.” Again, this sounds good but then please define what you mean by the “Bible”. Do you mean the “originals” or something you can hold in your hands today, or just what do you mean?

    3. One may say for instance, “I use the NASV but I also use Nestle’s for some clarification.” Ok, fine – but which of the two is your FINAL authority?

    At any rate you don’t have to participate – you may just want to think about it – I do not plan on “debating” this issue here. I’m just curios – that’s all.

    I guess to be fair I should start out with my final authority. My FINAL authority is a King James Bible that can be bought at Wal-Mart for $5.95. If I can’t find the answer or principle I’m looking for in this book then I figure God is not ready to show me or I need to study and pray more. If I find a passage but just don’t really understand it then I figure that God is not ready to show me or I need to study and pray more. For example, if I run across and strange word, let’s say like, ‘unicorn’ then I just figure God is not ready to show me or I need to study and pray more. But I don’t presume it is an error just because I don’t understand it or have never heard of one or seen one. And I don’t panic when one goes to other sources or the ancient languages – I don’t because I do not know the ancient languages - I have enough problems with simple English! For me I have found the King James Bible more than sufficient along with a concordance and a Webster’s 1828 dictionary to help me with the English words. But my final authority is a King James Bible that I can buy anywhere.

    OK – enough of me. A penny for your thoughts?

    What is your final authority in all matters of faith and practice?

    May God bless.
     
  2. GrannyGumbo

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    The Holy Bible, which is commonly known today as the King James Version, is my straight-stick; it is the ONLY way I have of knowing who God is or how He wants me to live my life. One God. One Bible.
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    The Word of God is my final authority.

    [ February 10, 2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  4. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    I'm sorry - I meant to include that if one were to say the "Word of God" then it was similar to if one would answer with saying, "the Bible" - what do you mean by the "word of God"? See my reference above regarding the "Bible" being the final authority.

    Thanks and God bless
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    By the Word of God I simply mean the Word of God.

    Thanks!
     
  6. 4His_glory

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    Ditto C4K!
     
  7. 4His_glory

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    AVBunyan,

    You say you do not want to debate this, but you are aware that this is a debate forum! Please explain to me why you insist on saying the KJV is your finale authority and not the Word of God?

    Also can you by a KJV anywhere? How about a country that dosen't use English as its offical language?
     
  8. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] ...And Roger...I know you read and study using a KJV as do I.Your answer WAS sufficient.It takes a man of true grace to avoid an arguement.God Bless You.

    Bro.Greg Sr. [​IMG]
     
  9. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    :rolleyes: By the way..since I'm here...my Final Authority IS the King James Bible(any edition).I'm pretty sure this is the 1769 that I have.It is all-sufficient for me.

    Greg Sr. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. robycop3

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    My answer? Every valid English Bible version. I have no authority to pick-n-choose, to declare this version is not valid because it doesn't match that version, etc.

    Before you ask, "What IS a valid version?" I'll answer...A valid version in one which closely follows its sources being translated. As for the validity of the sources, that question has been discussed among scholars for several generations, and is nowhere close to being resolved.

    May I ask YOU, Mr. Bunyan...How did YOU arrive at choosing the KJV as YOUR final authority while ignoring all the other just-as-valid versions written in OUR language?
     
  11. paidagogos

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    Do you see the apparent contradiction between the above statements? On the one hand you seem to arguing for the KJV as the final authority but on the other you are saying it is whatever you feel the Lord is leading you to use. Is this any better than the charismatic who supposedly receives a word of knowledge from God? Both are based on human feeling or supposedly intuitive knowledge. Do you accept the KJV because you “feel” it is authoritative? Others “feel” that the Greek and Hebrew are more authoritative. So, you have trivialized the authority question, once again, to subjective feelings. What are you going to do about this dilemma?

    BTW, e-mail me and I’ll send you the address where to send payment. :D
     
  12. Scott J

    Scott J
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    As C4K said, the Word of God. By that I mean what God said when He originally spoke through prophets, apostles, and holy men of old which is not now nor has ever been limited to a specific set of words chosen by fallible translators or even copyists... though the copyists would be one step closer to the actual words used by God.

    You can know accurately what someone said without having a single, "perfect" transcript of the words they used to say it. In the case of the Bible, we have several good translations that accurately reflect what God said... they all exist by His providence but none of them are words chosen directly by Him.
     
  13. Logos1560

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    There is nothing wrong in having a lot of confidence and trust in a good translation of the Scriptures. However, making that translation the final authority is a very different matter. For one thing, making a translation the final authority destroys the very foundation that the actual derived authority of that translation comes from. In effect, making the KJV the final authority harms the KJV since it makes the KJV
    to be like the Book of Mormon in the sense that
    neither is supposed to be verified, checked, or evaluated by a comparison to its underlying texts.
    Of course, with the KJV, there are existing underlying texts, but according to the KJV-only view that makes a translation the final authoriy in effect these texts have no authority that can be used to evaluate and establish the authority of the KJV. If the preserved Scriptures in the original languages are made into a lesser authority, then they cannot be used to verify or support a claimed "final authority."

    If someone bought a KJV with a printing error such as the infamous one "Thou shalt commit adultery," were they supposed to obey it blindly?

    For another thing, those KJV's that you can buy today are not all like. There are over 5 different editions available with some differences in text. If a person owns more than
    one KJV edition, on what authority or basis can it be determined which one is the supposed final authority?

    Do the Scriptures teach that the final authority for those who speak English should be different than the final authority for those who speak other languages? Do the Scriptures teach that the final authority today is different than the final authority before 1611?
     
  14. HankD

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    God is indeed my final authority.

    The Spirit of God leads me...
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    The Spirit of God witnesses to me...
    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

    Now if you want to know what MY final authority concerning the written Word of God, then I would have to say for the OT : The Masora.

    Personally I have not yet been able to find (or be shown) any substantive differences between the ben Chayyim, ben Asher and/or the ben Naphtali editions. Ben Chayyim seems to be the choice of traditionalists so for now that edition is my choice while I am still researching.

    For the NT: the Scrivener 1894/5 Textus Receptus would be my final authority.

    Even at that God ultimately is my final authority:

    James 1:
    5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.


    HankD
     
  15. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    __________________________________________________

    Scott;
    Help me out here ok? I presume you are a Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic scholar since you catagorically declared that none of the words in our bibles are "chosen directly by Him."
    So please help me out. Can you tell me the exact words God meant when He said, "Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is none else."?

    I guess I am confused since I am not a Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic scholar like you are. Fellers like you could sure be a help to us who need your expertise in these matters.

    Thanks.
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  16. paidagogos

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    Simple. You accept it by faith. It is what Edward F. Hills called the "logic of faith." Do you know and understand this argument? Also, it has been the translation of choice, validated by the body of believers in the English speaking church for centuries. This is much in the same vein as canonization.

    Contrary to your statement, all English translations are not equal. There are good and poor translations. No other translation has achieved such acceptance in English speaking church. Even the more literal translations, not just the dynamic equivalence ones, are inferior in exact expression of the original languages. This is not even to mention the body of theology and exegesis grown up around the KJV for hundreds of years. Its reliability and validity is established.

    Furthermore, it may be argued that the Elizabethan English is better suited to the expression of God's Word than any modern translation could be. The argument is similar to the one used for Latin as a scientific language for taxonomy. Elizabethan English is highly denotative and better suited for accurate expression of the Kione Greek, also denotative and specific, than Modern English, which is highly connotative and loose.

    According to your logic, you cannot differentiate between what God actually said and what He has not said since you cannot appeal to one single source or translation as authoritative and definitive. It all depends on which source scholars think is correct thereby making Scriptural authority to need the endorsement of scholarship. Whereas you profess belief in authority of the Scriptures, you have destroyed all possibility of any practical authority. All cannot be authoritative since they differ. Furthermore, the cumulative authority of all is meaningless since you cannot practically know which one is authoritative if authority is generalized to all and not specified as one source. Like all others who hold this position, you are talking gibberish. Thereby, you have negated the whole concept of authoritative Scriptures.
     
  17. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Paid...I definitely believe that the "english" in use today is a PERVERSION of the language.And I'm NOT saying this in reference to Bible translations per/se.Elizabethian English is a superior version of the language in use today...but...I'll add that that is simply MY opinion.What is in use today doesn't lend itself well to translations of the Word of God.I'd far rather stick with the "old paths" because they have proven themselves reliable and there is nothing in the King James Bible (language-wise) that can't be understood clearly today with the use of a good Strong's Concordance and a decent Websters dictionary.The spiritual truths of the Word of God are revealed to believers and lost people seeking TRUTH by the Holy Spirit and NOT through the natural understanding or "wisdom" of natural men.A "modern translation" of the bible will NOT give a "natural man" any better understanding of the TRUTH....until the Holy Spirit opens his heart and mind to it....regardless of the translation used.JMO


    Greg Sr.
     
  18. HankD

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    Obviously, I'm not Scott but I'll be a boor and say that you can find some good advice and help in your admitted confusion and need of expertise in (of all places) the prologue to the King James Bible by the translators themselves.
    KJV Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    ASV Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.

    NIV Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

    NASB Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

    RSV Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

    NKJV Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

    For instance, the obvious difference of "turn" and "look": Hebrew PANAH.

    The Hebrew word PANAH has two simultaneous qualities about it and there is no single word in the English language which contains both nuances.

    Strong's Meaning: 6437 PANAH 1) to turn 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to turn toward or from or away 1a2) to turn and do 1a3) to turn, decline (of day) 1a4) to turn toward, approach (of evening) 1a5) to turn and look, look, look back or at or after or for 1b) (Piel) to turn away, put out of the way, make clear, clear away 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to turn 1c2) to make a turn, show signs of turning, turn back 1d) (Hophal) to be turned back
    Origin: a primitive root; TWOT - 1782; v
    Usage: AV - turn 53, look 42, prepare 6, regard 4, respect 4, look back 4, turn away 2, turn back 2, misc 16; 135

    This Hebrew word contains both qualities of turning back and looking. So you can see that the "sense" of the Hebrew word is made clear by a variety of translations.

    HankD

    [ February 10, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  19. av1611jim

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    Hank;
    Then again, the word "turn" ruins the cross reference to the brass serpent which Moses held up in the wilderness picturing Christ. Whereas the word "look" doesn't. Look and live. I don't recall singing "turn and live". [​IMG]
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. av1611jim

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    I might add;
    Based on the cross reference to the brass serpent in the wilderness then the KJV got it right. "Look" is the correct alternative use of the word here. [​IMG]
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     

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