Question about Christ in the OT

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Mike McK, Nov 18, 2002.

  1. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was looking in one of Wesley's commentaries and it said that many times in the OT, the archangel, Michael is often portayed as representing Christ.

    Why?

    Is Michael (representing Christ, I assume) the angel with whom Abraham wrestled in Genesis?

    Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus really was Michael.

    Is Jesus appearing as Michael or is Michael appearing on Jesus' behalf?

    Any thoughts any of you might have would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Mike

    [ November 18, 2002, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    I believe anywhere it says "the angel of the Lord" it is reffering to Jesus.
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are no direct references in the OT that mentions Jesus specifically. There are some reference which may refer to the Trinity, but not by name.

    There are, however numerous references to the coming of the Messiah.

    From what I know, Jesus does not play a distinct role (at least as far as being separate from the triune Godhead) until the the NT.
     
  4. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Angel of the Lord is mentioned several times in the O.T. and when you read those passages you can tell this is no ordinary angel. I also believe it to be the preincarnate Christ.
    But as for Michael and Jesus being the one, no I don't think so. SOunds JW to me.
     
  5. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    The Old Testament is "jammed pack full" of types and figures of the Lord Jesus Christ! Its sorta like being on a two-laned highway and driving upon a sign which signals a curve in the road ahead--now, the sign has a curve in it--that tells you that the REAL curve is just ahead!! Just so with the Old Testament--

    One of the greatest signs that the Old Testament conveyed was with the arks--Noah's ark was a picture of the Lord Jesus--Moses' ark was a picture of the Lord Jesus--The Ark of the Covenant was a picture of the Lord Jesus--all sent a message to the believers of that age that the real thing(Jesus) was just ahead!! And they by faith would believe with all their hearts that their Messiah WAS just ahead--just a few more weary steps and then rest will come!!

    What I like about the various arks typifying the Lord Jesus is this

    Noah--upon completion of the ark was compelled by God to "COME thou and all thy house into the ark."--Genesis 7: 1 Its funny how all those years Noah was building the ark that when it was prepared--God just took over and invited Noah into the very thing that Noah was a part of for 120 years.

    Jesus--upon entering into public ministry began to beacon the people to "COME unto Me all ye who are weary and heavy laden" and "Suffer the children to COME unto Me"

    John--in Revelation 4 was compelled to "COME and see!!"

    The last plea of the Bible is a plea from the Spirit to --- COME!

    On and on we could go--time will fail us to talk of all the pictures, types, symbols, and people who typified the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament---basically with a message to "COME" to Jesus--have you come yet, happy reader!!??

    As for the identity of Micheal??? Simple! Micheal the archangel was Micheal the archangel!! Not to be confused with the Lord Jesus Christ--the JW's are not even close--they're not even in the right ball park!!

    Your friend,
    Blackbird
     
  6. new man

    new man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2002
    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    0
    The theological term for God for either a visible or auditory manifestation of God is "Theophany." Some examples of the visible appearing would the Angel of the Lord appearing in human form, the burning bush, the pillar of flame, or the cloud of smoke (for all us ex-hippies [​IMG] ). Examples of the auditory manifestations would be the voice of God when he spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden, the still small voice Elijah heard, or the voice from heaven at the transfiguration. One of the more awesome appearances of the angel of the Lord was when he put to death 185,000 Assyrians in one night (2 Kings 19:35).

    In the Father,

    Russ <><

    editd fer spelin

    [ November 18, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: new man ]
     
  7. SouthernBaptistBoy

    SouthernBaptistBoy
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Mike, [​IMG]

    Never in the O.T. does Michael appear as Jesus and vise versa. I do believe as other here have stated the "Angel of the Lord" did refer to Jesus. I also believe that Melchizedek the one Abraham tiethed to was a Christophony, a pre new testament appearance of Jesus.

    God Bless.
     
  8. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    To the posters above-----

    AAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEEEEEENNNNNN! Come preach for me Sunday!!!

    Your Southern Baptist Buddy!
    Blackbird
     
  9. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    "Angel of the Lord" simply means messenger of the Lord, so it is not always a theophany. However when you read the 'angel' saying "I" will do such and such, that's our Lord talking!

    Just as an extra note, ancient Jewish tradition holds that Melchizedek was Shem -- he lived long enough for that. I don't know if that is correct, but it is interesting.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    "The" Angel of the Lord = Christ
    "An" angel of the Lord = angel ic messenger

    Rough (and not absolute) rule for seeing Christophanies in the OT. Really neat study, with lots of insights.
     
  11. tfisher

    tfisher
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Genesis 16:7-14
    7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
    10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? 14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

    1. It is significant that the passage says "the" angel of the Lord, for there is none like Him. When He spoke in verse 10, he assumed authority over the giving of life as God Himself.

    2. Hagar identified Him with God. In every other passage in the Bible where an angel appears and the person tries to worship the angel, the angel corrects the person.

    This doesn't sound like Michael to me. It does sound a whole lot like Jesus, though. [​IMG]
     
  12. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isaiah saw the Lord:
    Isa 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. [2] Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. [3] And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. [4] And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. [5] Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

    John says Isaiah saw and spoke of Christ:
    John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. [42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
     
  13. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for all your answers.

    I'm with you all on the "angel of the Lord" representing Jesus, but I was a little confused by Wesley's referrence to Michael representing Jesus because in other parts of scripture, we see that they are clearly two different people.

    I wonder if his interpretation is tied in in any way to the JWs' view that Jesus really is Michael.

    Helen, thank you for your comments on Shem.
    That actually ties in to a conversation I'm having with someone on another board.

    Mike
     
  14. Daniel Dunivan

    Daniel Dunivan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    374
    Likes Received:
    0
    Any inclusion of Jesus as specifically present in the OT is isigesis. The texts do not demand the readings that you are presenting. Your interpretations are not directly of the texts, but are theological propositions outside the texts. Correct exegesis would require that we affirm the acts of the OT are simply the work of God (our theology says that He is triune, but that was not the basic content of the OT revelation).

    A more difficult question could be raised concerning mythological nature of certain parts of the OT, which would shed a great deal of light on many of the angel of YHWH texts you are presenting.

    Grace and Peace, Danny [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...