Question about Revelation

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by JRG39402, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. JRG39402

    JRG39402
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    I know that nobody likely knows exactly for sure, but does anyone made an educated guess on MYSTERY BAPYLON, the "whore" of Revelation?
     
  2. Rhetorician

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    You are probably correct "that nobody knows exactly!"

    Do we not have enough nonsense from our pulpits now without doing "guess"ing hermeneutics and exposition of the Sacred Texts?

    sdg!

    rd
     
  3. Squire Robertsson

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    As long as the supposition is properly labeled, why not hazard an educated guess? The Whore's identity is sufficiently murky that any identification must be labeled as a personal opinion. But, there is sufficient information to hazard an educated guess. (Though, the Holy Mother Church would dispute my opinion.)
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    She is Old Covenant Jerusalem.
     
  5. Plain Old Bill

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    My hope is to be gone before we find out.
     
  6. JackRUS

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  7. standingfirminChrist

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    Oh no!! Donald Duck was not wearing pants.!!
     
  8. IveyLeaguer

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    The most interesting theory I've seen is one that reveals New York City as the great 'whore'.
     
  9. DHK

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    In his book "A Woman Rides the Beast" Dave Hunt puts forth some fairly compelling arguments for the Vatican as the great whore of Babylon.
     
  10. Eliyahu

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    Bible explains quite well:

    1) Mother of harlot,which means the betrayal against God. A religion which emphasize the Mother of gods or Mother of fertility, mother of church ( Church's mother has been never mentioned in Bible)
    2) the woman drunk with the blood of the saints,
    This means that the woman is the group which killed many true believers.

    3) she sits on 7 mountain City (Rev 17:9). Which city is built on 7 mountain(hills)?

    4)She sits everywhere in the world (17:15)

    5) she is related to Idol worship as Rev 13.

    Eventually this group persecute the believers.
    We can find 7 hills in Rome. Is there any other city which is known as having 7 hills or mountain?

    I don't think this is RC only, but RC will be the core of this group as all the other religions except the True Believers willbe persecuted.
     
  11. Ulsterman

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    Theologians have debated for many years as to the identity of this woman, and yet withal there are several clues, in fact ten of them, which are given to help us identify the woman.

    1. It tells us something about her Person - She is a harlot. Ezekiel, Hosea and Nahum will reveal that this is a term that God applies not only to the physical role of prostitution, but to the spiritual infidelity of those who purport to worship Him, so she is a religious entity - an organisation that professes to represent the cause of Christ upon the earth, and yet is somehow untrue to Christ and to His Word and will.

    2. It tells us something about her Presence - she “sitteth upon many waters” the waters picture the nations - accrding to Rev 17:15. So she is a religious organisation of with a global outreach, an organism of universal proportions.

    3. It tell us something about her Power - With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Revelation 17:2). - her influence is universal. I believe what is in view is the Roman Catholic Church. To whom do we see the sovereigns of the world bow & curtsey, whilst dressed in black? It is only to the Pope, the head of the church of Rome. Which church is it whose headquarters are internationally recognised as a country in its own right? It is the Vatican City, the home of Romanism. And as an internationally recognised political entity Rome has the right to send ambassadors to every nation, so that in the corridors of power the world over her cardinals rub shoulders with the kings.

    4. It tells us something about her Politics - she sit upon a scarlet coloured beast . . . having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3). Here we have the image of a beast dominated by a woman, a religious figure which we have identified as being Roman Catholic in her character. Obviously the beast cannot represent the church of Rome, otherwise she would be sitting upon herself. The beast, I believe, is pictorial of the rule of the antichrist,who shall be Europe’s last great dictator. What is presently emerging in Europe is a new Holy European Empire, an attempt to resurrect the old Holy Roman Empire that existed under the Popes. Even the European Union’s flag consisting of 12 stars, was inspired by the halo of 12 stars that appear around the Madonna in Catholic pictures of her. A former secretary general of the Council of Europe, Leon Marchal, affirmed that the stars are those of “the woman of the Apocalypse.” Enthusiastically he explained, “It’s wonderful that we have gotten back to the Introit of the new Mass of the Assumption. It’s the corona stellarum duodecim (the crown of the twelve stars) of the woman of the Apocalypse.”

    5. It tells us something of her Profanity - “full of names of blasphemy.” (17:3) Only the church of Rome would dare to call their leader “Holy Father” a name reserved by Jesus for God alone. Only Rome dares to call her leader the “Supreme Pontiff” meaning the Supreme High Priest. Only the Pope calls himself the Vicar of Christ, meaning that he is Christ’s sole representative upon earth. From the mass, in which the priest claims to call down God and turn bread into Christ’s body & wine into his blood to sacrifice him afresh, through to the worship of Mary, purgatory, praying for the dead, worship of saints, through to its holy relics & shrines, Rome is full of blasphemy & idolatry.

    6. It tells us something about her Prosperity - “And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand.” (Revelation 17:4). How much the R.C. church is worth is one of the world’s greatest unsolved mysteries, but it is the only church on earth with its own bank!

    7. It tells us something about her Practice - “And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT.” This takes us back to babel and to Mimrod and to the practices passed down from ancient Babylonian religion. Out of the Babylonian false religion of Semiramis and Tammuz came these concepts which you can identify in the Roman church. The use of holy water. The sign of the Cross made with the hand which originated as a T sign for Tammuz. Celibacy of priests. Virgins dedicated to serving the church. Lent, the 40 days of mourning leading up to the resurrection of Tammuz. Purgatory and worship of the mother while constantly keeping the Son in a lesser role as a baby.

    8. It tells us something about her Progeny - THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Revelation 17:5). She has birthed offspring - children made in her own likeness. At the end of the age what is in view is not Roman Catholicism alone, but a combination of every religious falsehood the world throughout, characterised and dominated by the church of Rome. At Pope John Paull II’s funeral there were leaders of 14 other major faiths paying homage.

    9. It tells us something about her Persecution - “And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” (Revelation 17:6). The history of Rome - which some want us to forget about it, sees her “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.”

    10. It tells us something about her Place - there “are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (Revelation 17:9). Two simple questions: Which city is famously known for sitting upon seven hills? More than dozen ancient writers describe Rome as the city built on seven hills. This was familiar terminology in the 1st century. Secondly, which city was the “great city” on earth at the time of the apostle John? In John's day that could only be one city -- Rome. "The great city," which was the capital of the Roman Empire that dominated the whole known world of that day, and ruled over the kings of the earth.

    One more thing from verse 14 of Revel;ation 17: Notice the colours, scarlet & purple. a. They are the colours of Rome, the markings of her cardinals & bishops. Then not only the clothing, but also the cup - “having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication”. Observe the papal masses, watch how the cardinals or the Pope, bedecked in scarlet and purple, hold high the golden cup containing the wine, which they believe has been transubstantiated into the actual blood of Christ.

    There is a saying “All roads lead to Rome,” in Revelation 17 that certainly seems to be the case. It may not sit well with the ecumenical crowd - but it is the truth - the fingerprints of the Roman Catholic system are all over this symbolic figure.
     
  12. Grasshopper

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    Jerusalem:

    Isa 1:21 How has the faithful city become a harlot? It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.


    Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there has been no latter rain; and you had a harlot's forehead, you refused to be ashamed.

    Eze 16:44 Behold, all who use proverbs shall use this proverb against you, saying, As the mother, so is her daughter.
    Eze 16:45 You are your mother's daughter, who despises her husband and her sons. And you are the sister of your sisters, who despise their husbands and their sons. Your mother was a Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
    Eze 16:46 And your older sister is Samaria, she and her daughters who dwell at your left hand. And your younger sister, who dwells at your right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
    Eze 16:47 Yet you have not walked according to their ways, nor done according to their hateful deeds; but, as if it were a very little thing, you were corrupted more than they were in all your ways.
    Eze 16:48 As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, Sodom your sister, she nor her daughters, has not done as you have done, you and your daughters.

    Jerusalem:


    1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also have suffered these things by your own countrymen, even as they also by the Jews;
    1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also driving us out and they do not please God and being contrary to all men,

    Luk 13:34 Jerusalem! Jerusalem! the one killing the prophets, and stoning those having been sent to her; how often I desired to gather your children in the way a hen gathers her brood under the wings, and you did not desire it.


    Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

    It wouldn’t have taken “wisdom” to conclude Rome.
    If you wish a literal interpretation Jerusalem can provide one as well. She could be said to sit on seven: Zion,Acra,Moriah,Bezetha,Millo,Ophel, and Antonio. Rome was said to be on seven hills not mountains.


    She is also said to sit on many waters:

    Rev 17:1 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters,

    She also is sitting on a scarlet beast:

    Rev 17:3 And he carried me away into a desert by the Spirit. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored beast, filled with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    Is Rome sitting on Rome?

    Beasts, waters and mountains are all symbolic and found in the OT. Again, it would not have taken wisdom to come up with Rome.

    Actually she sits on the earth not world. Big difference:

    Earth :
    γῆ
    gē
    ghay
    Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

    Earth here refers to a region.

    Jerusalem:

    Eze 6:9 And those of you who escape shall remember Me among the nations where they shall be exiled, because I was broken by their whoring heart which has departed from Me, and with their whoring eyes which go after their idols. And they shall despise themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

    Mat 23:30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    Mat 23:31 So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets;
    Mat 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers.
    Mat 23:33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

    Mat 23:34 `Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;
    Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:
    Mat 23:36 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
     
  13. EdSutton

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    That from the same bunch that wnanted to 'slay'? 'the great whore' or was that 'the great Satan'- I forget which- back in Sept., 2001? Just askin'!
    Ed
     
  14. mima

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    I must've read hundreds of articles pertaining to this question. And I make no pretense of being knowledgeable on this matter. But "old school" that I am I still believe that Rome is that city.
     
  15. Helen

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    Rome is on seven hills. So, interestingly, is San Francisco....
     
  16. Deacon

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    ...and Cincinnati

    Rob
     
  17. Ulsterman

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    So what? San Francisco, Cincinnati et al, do not fulfill the other characteristics of Mystery Babylon as portrayed in Rev 17.
     
  18. mnw

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    Grasshopper, would you be amillennial by any chance? Just a question.

    It would appear the stronger case is for RCC to be Mystery Babylon. Even though Jerusalem may fulfill some of the characteristics, it certainly does not fulfill them all. On the other hand, RCC does quite easily.

    In terms of the harlot etc. Does not Hosea picture the husband (Hosea) forgiven and taking back his wife who played the harlot? This speaks quite strongly to me that despite all her failures, God will one day recieve back and forgive NATIONAL Israel.

    So, to keep things on the thread, RCC and not Jerusalem appears to be Mystery Babylon.
     
  19. Grasshopper

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    No, much further down the heretical road than mere a-mill.

    Old Covenant Jerusalem fulfills every description. How many prophets did the RCC kill?
     
  20. Ulsterman

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    The text says "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" not the O.T. prophets
     

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