Question about the Spirit and Tongues

The Bible does not teach this. In fact, part of what you say contradicts scripture. The Bible does not say that all the revelation we need is in the Bible. The Bible says that the Spirit leads into all truth. It is by the Spirit that we know the things that are given to us of God. Paul prayed that the Ephesians would have the Spirit of revelation.

Some shy away from the term 'inspiration.' I use it in a literal sense, meaning that the Spirit is in it. The Spirit can lead people to say and do certain things. Believers can act and speak in the power of the Spirit. That is what I am writing about.

Here you teach something that contradicts scripture, which says that the Spirit will lead into all truth. The Bible also teaches that it is Christ that has received all authority in heaven and on earth.

I listed several examples of revelation not written down in scripture. Let me ask you, do you believe the following things were inspired by God:

-The prophecies of Micaiah to Ahab that were not recorded in scripture, but referenced in scripture?
- The prophecies of Jonah that he gave before he went to Ninevah?
- The acts and words of Christ, the Word of God, not recorded in scripture?
- The things the man in II Corinthians heard when he was caught up into the third heaven?
- What the thunder clap said, mentioned in Revelation, that John was not allowed to write down?

You are using faulty logic. Peter does not say that only the scriptures are inspired. He does not say that only the apostles or prophets were inspired. Where do you get the basis for this doctrine? It is not from scripture, and therefore you violate the principle of sola scriptura. This is a rather paradoxical position you hold to.

First, Paul speaks of that which is in part being done away. He doesn't say done away until the rapture, and then restarted.

Second, let us talk about eschatology according to the Bible, and not according to man-made dispensational charts. According to Paul, the resurrection occurs at Christ's coming, not seven years before it. (See I Cor. 15.) II Thessalonians 1:7-8 tells us that when Christ returns, he will give 'us' rest and execute vengence on evildoers.

Even if you do hold to an unBiblically supported pre-trib rapture doctrine, you have to resurrect the gift of prophecy to make it happen. The ironic part is that many die-hard pre-trib folks argue that the Spirit is being withdrawn for that time period, but have the gift of prophecy being active. Your line of reasoning shows the weakness of both the cessationist and the pre-trib rapture views.

 

I don't follow your reasoning, and I don't see how believing in the gifts is related to being threatened.

I have heard and read cessationists--not you, but others-- arguing against gifts because if they still continue, then where is the final authority. Certain things are 'up in the air.' Really this is an appeal to fear. Having a 'final authority' that you can interpret with your mind, and treat your interpretations as absolute truth, is comfortable to people. But to have to actually discern if a prophecy is from God, like the early church had to do, and to have the possibility of God doing somethign that doesn't fit with your understanding of things is unsettling for many people.

 

StandingFirm and DHK

If partial knowledge like NT and OT prophets had is gone, then you should have complete knowledge. You should be able to tell me all the natural disasters this year. Prophets got prophecies like that. An individual prophet may not know every disaster, since he knows and prophesies in part. But he will know some. If you have complete knowledge, you should know all.

The prophet could know who is called to itinerant preaching ministry, since Timothy received a gift through prophecy. Tell me what every believer on earth is called to. Surely you know this if that which is in part is done away.

If you cannot tell me these things, then stop arguing that that which is in part has been done away.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you better quote the verse, read the context and carefully study the passage lest you fall into heresy.
For you sir, will never be led into ALL truth.
You will never have ALL truth.
You will never be omniscient.
You are not God!
And I would appreciate it if you would stop inferring that you are.
Christ said: "I am...the truth."
Christ did not say: "Link is the truth." That is blasphemy.
Christ never promised that Link would be the truth or ever would have all truth. Only God has all truth, and ever will be the only One to have all truth. And that still will be true even when we are in heaven. For even in heaven we will still be learning. You will never come to that position of having all truth. So don't spread the heresy. Find out what the verse means before you post something that leads to heresy.

 

It would seem you are falling into either borderline slander or else an inability to read and follow a discussion. First, I did not say that the promise is for me specifically and exclusively.

I think your problem is that you do not know your Bible as well as you think you do. If you did, you would realize that I was referring to this verse.

And to show that this principle applies not only to the apostles, but also to the church, I referred to this verse.

and again from the same chapter:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

[quotes from NKJV]

If you will look at the context, you will see that it is in response to your assertion that the Bible is the 'only authority.' The scriptures are clear that on the issue of the authority of the Spirit to lead us in matters of faith and practice. That was the issue I was addressing. You try to twist things around as if I were personally claiming some sort of omniscience. I quoted a verse that says 'we have the mind of Christ.' 'We' is plural.

You are the one claiming complete knowledge.

Saying that I infer that I am either omniscient or God is a lie.

If one did interpret I Corinthians 13 to say that when the perfect comes, we will have literal omniscience, that does not mean that we will become God. There is a lot more to God than omniscience. Hypothetically speaking, if God were to grant one of His creations omniscience, that would not make the creation into God as well. That does not make sense. If I were the best accountant in the world, and I taught you everything I knew, that would not make you into me.

The coming of the perfect will be vastly more complete than prophecy or the type of knowledge mentioned in I Corinthians 13. It will replace these things, and will not be inferior to them.

How would you like it if I wrote,
"Christ did not say, "DHK is the truth!" It is blasphemy to assert that you are the door. The Bible does not teach that DHK died for the sins of mankind. It is blasphemy for you to assert that you did....." While what I am saying is true in a sense, it implies that you said things that you did not say. You just did the same thing to me in my last post. You owe me an apology. Please refrain from slanderously implying that I said things that I did not say.

So the question is, do you believe these words are true or not, "when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth". That is the very verse I referred to in my last post that you reacted so strongly against.

Your problem seems to be with what Jesus said, not the point I was making. I was not making the point you implied that I made. If you would pay attention and not jump wildly to conclusions and come out swinging, perhaps you would not make mistakes like this.

 

Forthtelling, not foretelling. If foretelling were still necessary, the Bible would be incomplete.

To say that foretelling is still needed is to deny that God's Word is finished.

 

I believe what these words are teaching in the context in which they were being used, but not in the way you are applying them. For you to apply this verse to yourself in the way that you are doing is just the same to claim deity. Never will God give you ALL TRUTH. Never! That is reserved for God alone. Don't worry. You are not the only one that makes this mistake. It is a very common misapplication of this particular Scripture, but a wrong one. God does not lead anyone today into all truth--plain and simple. If he did that person would be omniscient--just like God, wouldn't he? Are you just like God? No! Therefore he doesn't lead you into all truth does he? You are not perfect. You are often led into deception aren't you? Is there any man that is perfectly led into all truth all of the time every minute of every day of their lives--All truth all of the time? The answer is no. It is impossible.
I would suggest reading 1John 1:8,10 at this point.

So what does the verse mean and what is its context.
First he was speaking to his disciples.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Then he says:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Soon Christ would physically depart from his disciples. He would no longer be with them in the flesh. But he reassures them that the Holy Spirit would be there, and he would be there for a specific purpose--to reveal to them those things to them that he wasn't able to communicate to them just then.
The apostles were the future writers of Scripture. They would be the ones who would complete the canon of the Bible. The Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth as they wrote the words that God would command them to write under the inspiration of His Spirit. They would not make any mistake. They would be perfectly guided into all truth, without error. Their manuscripts would be perfect, infallible and without error. The Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth when that time came to write the Scripture that God intended them to write. This is what the verse means. It is not a Scripture to be used and applied to all believers, and indeed cannot be. For no believer is omniscient, nor will ever be. No believer can ever be led into all truth. To claim such is blasphemy.

 

I think you will find that if you read the context that our Lord is referring specifically to his disciples here.
It is a common mistake for folk to apply those words that the Lord Jesus spoke to the apostles, to the whole church. There are things that do apply to us as the church, but this verse is not one of them. If it were, then we all would be guided into all truth and the facts of the matter are that if we all were, then we would not be having this argument now.
We all shall eventually come into all truth. But that will come to pass when we all shall be changed. But for now we must settle it in our minds that the days of the apostles is gone and the canon of holy scripture has been

Anything that professes anything either way of that word tends towards heresy and we are in danger of forsaking the truth by mistaking our personal visions and prophesies for the word of God.
So many people forget the basic rules of testing a prophet. Just look at the many heresies that have grown up around us because of those who claim to be prophets. All because they thought that God had something else to say to them.

There are of course NT verses which say the same thing. We are commanded

But of course we already have the last word of God. How do we know that?

Christ is God's last word to us. There will be no other revelation. Because there is nothing more to say. It is our work as Christian believers to declare that message to the world. All the prophesies of things to come that we need to know have been shown us already, either by the the apostles, or by Christ himself. Our work is to declare Jesus Christ and him crucified, dead, buried and risen again. My dear friends. If our message contains anything other than this, then we are on the road to heresy. Why anyone would want to know anything more than this escapes me. Surely there is enough in these words alone to occupy the whole of our lives.

 

And you offer no evidence for this from scripture or from reason. If God can move men to forth-tell, their forthtelling can be foretelling, or not. That is up to God. We have no right to tell God what message can be spoken through the saints.

Do you not believe that God cannot communicate to certain believers that they are called to particular ministries?

 

I notice that you did not make any comments on the verse from I Corinthians 2, in which Paul and his readers, the church in Corinth and all believers are 'we' and 'us.' The Spirit makes known to us the things that are freely given to us of God. Paul writes, 'But we have the mind of Christ.' (He does not say, "I" or "thou" but "we.")

And my point for bringing this up was because DHK made the unbiblical claim that the Bible is the only authority, when the Bible is clear on the authority of the Spirit in this age. It is through the Spirit that men were prophetically inspired to write the New Testament scriptures. The Bible is not the only authority. Jesus did not even say He would send a book to lead into all truth. He said He was sending the Comforter.

If we did not still know in part, we would not have many of the conversations we have on these forums, would we?

Thank you.

We shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. That's what I've been saying. That is when the perfect comes.

There are plenty of heretical beliefs started by men reading the Bible and intepreting it with their carnal minds. Think of the classical heresies, and you will find many if not the vast majority have little or nothing to do with visions or prophecies.

And that is one of the key mistakes you are making. You are disobeying the verses about prophecy if you reject them out of hand. Prophecies are to be weighed carefully, not rejected out of hand. Paul wrote Despise not prophesyings; prove all things; hold fast to that which is good.

If you despise prophesyings, then you aren't obeying the scriptures. If you reject prophecies out of hand, then you are not testing the Spirits. If there were only 12 apostles plus Paul, it would make little sense for a church to test those that claim to be apostles. Either they are in that 13, or they are not. But we can count more than 13 apostles in scripture, and Ephesians 4 shows us that Christ ascended and received apostles after the ascension, whereas the 12 were apostles before the ascension.

Christ is the ultimate revelation from God to man. But if you read this verse to say that there is no revelation after Christ came, then you are eisegeting. After the ascension, we read in Acts that prophets were given. In fact, Hebrews was written after the ascension, so if you accept this verse as inspired, you will have to admit that there was revelation after Christ was born, died, was resurrected, and ascended.

The faith has already been passed down to us, but revelation is an on-going thing. Paul prayed for the Ephesians to have the Spirit of revelation. People believe in Christ because of revelation-- God reveals Christ to them, as we see in the Gospel of John. God revealed His Son in Paul.

There is also the wrath of God which is revealed from heaven to the ungodly. God still reveals Himself in creation. Revelation is not something confined to the past. It is ongoing. Notice I prefer to use such terms in their Biblical sense.

 

Before the ascension of our Lord, there were things left that were a mystery... even to the Apostles and the Church. But the Apostles, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote down all that God intends for man to know.

All that was a mystery has been revealed to the Church through the Scripture...

Mark 4:11 Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom...
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery...
Romans 16:25-26 according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest

There are several more verses and passages concerning that which at one time was a mystery to the Church, but have been made manifest.

There is no longer a need for foretelling, because all mysteries concerning the Church have been made known to the Church. To prophesy anything that is not written in the Word of God is adding to the Word of God... for which there are serious penaltios for that false prophet who does such.

 

Ok, can you tell me of one new truth that we have today that the New Testament has not revealed to us already?

 

I agree with you. But after these mysteries were revealed, the spiritual gifts continued to function. There were still prophecies. There were still tongues, miracles, etc. The perfection Paul wrote about in I Corinthians 13 has not come yet even though these mysteries have been revealed. THey will be reealed when we see 'face to face.'

I assume by 'Word of God' you mean 'the Bible.' (I use a capital 'W' when referring to Christ. I do not consider the paper and ink to be deity.)

Like I pointed out earlier, God gave many revelations through prophets that are not revealed in scripture. The scripture refers to them. These were not added to scripture. By the same token, God gives revelations like this that are not added to scripture.

I understand that you want to honor scripture. You want to, in a sense, 'protect' scripture. But which is better, honoring scripture in a way that the scripture does not teach, or believing it and doing what it says. The Bible does not teach that anyone who prophesies today is a false prophets. Jesus said you will know false prophets by their fruits. He did not say you will know them because they prophesy after 90AD (or whatever year.) You are ignoring the Biblical instructions and tests for prophets and inventing your own test.

What does the Bible say about this? I Corinthians is written not only to the Corinthian church, but to all who sincerely call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Check out the introduction. It is written to us as well.

I Corinthians 14 commands us to covet to prophesy. Do you obey this verse? This book also commands 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' Tongues need to be used, in church, together with interpretation the way the Lord commands through Paul in the passage, but it is wrong to forbid their use.

I Thessalonians says to despise not prophesying. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good. You are disobeying this direct command of scripture. You are despising prophecies because you reject them out of hand. You are not proving all thigns since you have rejected them before you proved them.

I John says to test the spirits to see if they are from God. You reject spiritual manifestations, in many cases, before you test them because they do not fit into your set of preconcieved notions about what GOd will do today.


What purpose does prophecy serve if the mysteries of the Gospel has been revealed? Prophecy edifies, comforts, and exhorts. The Spirit can say anything He wants through a prophecy, whether it is directional, predictive, or whatever. God uses these types of prophecies to build up the body.

The gift of prophecy in the New Testament is a gift the Lord used to prepare the church for coming calamity, to prepare Paul for persecution, and to impart and point out spiritual gifts and callings. Can the Lord 'reveal' doctrinal truth through prophecy? Yes, but doctrinal truth has already been revealed. A prophecy can 'reveal' doctrinal truth to an individual who did not grasp it before, clearing up teachings that are already in the scriptures for him.

My Bible says that God gives prophecy and tongues for the profit of all. These are gifts in the body of Christ. So, while you are trying to defend the role of the Bible by arguing against prophecy, consider the idea that you should actually be 'defending' the Bible by actually believing and doing what it says. The Bible teaches that God gives the gift of prophecy to the church. It commands us to covet to prophesy and to despise not prophesyings.

 

See my previous post. God can use revelatory gifts to teach someone part of the faith that was already handed down from the begining. But prophecy was also used to warn and prepare people for future events, and point out or impart gifts and callings.

 

But can you tell me one new revelation that the apostles or our Lord has not told us already? I feel that you haven't really answered my question. You said that revelation is an ongoing thing. So please show me just one new revelation that the Biblical prophets, or apostles have not revealed to us already?

 

Sure, there are a near infinite number of things the Spirit can reveal that the apostles have not revealed already.

I heard a testimony from a preacher who said the Lord spoke to him one morning while he was ministering in TX many years ago that the governor of TX would be president. He did not know who the governor was, so he asked and it was George W. Bush. Six months later he and two others happened to meet Bush at the wailing wall in Jerusalem, and he shared a prophetic revelation. He heard later that Bush said three men prophesied over him at the wailing wall and said he would be president, so maybe he'd better run.

I also read an account of a certain charismatic Presbyterian preacher prophesying over governor Ronald Reagan that he would be president with Pat Boone as a witness to the prophecy.

One time, I was praying for a young man I'd never met before, and sensed the Lord was telling me 'headaches.' Still being new at this stuff, I asked him how his health was. He said not too good. I asked him if he had a problem with headaches. He said that yes he had since he was young, with horrible pain on one side of his head. So I and some of his fellow Bible college classmates prayed for him.

I know many people who say that God has called them to preach. You may think that God would not do such a thing, reveal a call to someone without it being written in scripture, but there are plenty of preachers out there-- some of them who call themselves Baptists even-- who insist that God has called them to preach. Sometimes people who get called to preach get reminded of it when they get prophesied over.

My wife got a series of dreams warning about tsunamis and earthquakes in Indonesia before two years from August 2006, which would be August 2008. One was that the city of Padang would have a tsunami. It had one just recently.

Spurgeon, that famous preacher from the 1800's would occasionally look at people from his pulipit and give specific details about them as he preached. I recall a story about a man who ran his business on Sunday instead of going to church who told how Spurgeon rebuked him for it during the sermon, telling him the amount of money he had gotten paid for doing it.

Can you find any of these specific details in scripture?

By the way, if you want a list of historical examples of revelatory gifts and a description of how they can be useful in the church, read Jack Deere's book Surprised by the Voice of God. Deere has a section that deals with prophetic and revelatory gifts in the Reformation period in Scottland, ironically enough.

 

He said:

You have not provided one example, ont one, of any new revelation, no new doctrine, no new teaching, etc. All the revelation that God has given us is in the Word of God. The trivialities that you have mentioned could have been anyone's guesses. And the other 90% of the guesses that they made were probably wrong, thus making them false prophets. They just didn't advertise those ones.

 

We also have to look at the possibility that it was not God who revealed the presidents to these men.

Satan uses his fortune tellers and soothsayers to reveal things to trick people.

All revelation that God wants us to know has already been revealed in the Word of God. Any spirit that reveals such things that don't have anything to do with God's Word (such as who the next president is, or who will win the lotto, etc.) should be dismissed.

 

OK, but I am sure there are others on this board who have encountered, as I have, people who have made the same sort of predictions, based on what they believed the Holy Spirit was revealing to them.

I remember a lady who firmly believed (as a result, she told me, of the Holy Spirit speaking to her out of the fire in her living room) that her daughter was going to have a baby boy. So sure was she that she knitted various items of baby clothing, purchased nursery equipment, and so on. That was 30 years ago, and the daughter is still childless.

Then I remember the mother of a young man in his thirties. He had something like muscular dystrophy, and was confined to a wheelchair. She was convinced that the Holy Spirit had told her that the young man would be healed, and would no longer need his wheelchair, or his specially-adapted living quarters. He died before he reached 40. Praise God, he doesn't need a wheelchair or specialist facilities now, but that was not what the lady meant.

Hebrews 1.1-4:

1 ¶ God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 ¶ having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

 

I remember some time ago, a young man with a bit of a Charismatic background that told me that the Lord had given him a job. He emphasized that it was the Lord who led him to this job, and he knew of a certainty that it was of God, and God's will. So, instead of dancing around the subject, I finally got around to saying: "Well what is it, that the Lord has given to you?"
He said:
"I'm a bartender!" And here is how I know.
I was reading in Scripture, and here is what the Lord impressed upon my heart:

Revelation 3:7-8 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

God had opened this door for him (bartending). No man could shut it. And no no man would open another door. It was his. It was from the Lord.
There was the gross misapplication of Scripture. Was it from the Lord. Of course not. God does not lead Christians to work in such sinful places that are contrary to his Word.
"Woe unto him who giveth his neighbor to drink..."

Another Charismatic "prophet" preached and/or prophesied that if the young men would walk around their girl friends seven times just as Joshua walked around the walls of Jericho seven times, then the walls of her heart would coming tumbling down (just as they did in Jericho), and he could go ahead and plan to marry her. Needless to say there were many marriages that were rushed into, and many marriage counselling sessions held shortly thereafter. What a ridiculous application of Scripture. Such a "prophet" of Scripture ought to be shot, for the ruination of many a young person's life.