Question for Catholics here...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JohnDeereFan, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan
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    What do you think of the Catholic Church's misrepresentation of Genesis 3:15 in the Douay-Rheims "Bible"?
     
  2. Zenas

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    The Douay-Rheims is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate, compiled by Jerome and probably completed circa 405. His use of the feminine ipsa rather than the neutual ipsum resulted in the difference between "she" and "he" in the English. Since Catholics and Protestants alike regard Jesus as the one who would crush the serpent's head, it would appear that Jerome got it wrong. Jerome was a huge fan of the Virgin Mary so it is not too surprising that he did this. It was, however, an easy error to commit from a linguistic point of view. This website http://biblescripture.net/First.html offers as good an explanation of the linguistics as I have found:
    The only sermon I have heard on how we should regard the Protoevangelium was delivered by Albert Mohler at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on October 10, 2007. You can listen to it on his website at http://www.albertmohler.com/sermons-and-speeches/ It's really pretty impressive how he brings this verse down through the ages as the promise of who would break the curse and how it was to be broken.
     
  3. lori4dogs

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    I really wasn't even aware of this Johndeerfan, maybe someone else on this board will have another explanation. Zenas has a lot more knowledge on the subject than I do.
    I have always read it in either the KJV, New Jerusalem, or NAB.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    That seems a pretty reasonable explination. Though on the front of it; it seems as though Mary uses Jesus to crush the serpants head. I'm curious about the lying in wait to strike his heel. Does the serpant strike the heel or not?
     
  5. Zenas

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    Mary using Jesus to crush the serpent's head is certainly one way of looking at this verse, in which case Jerome would have got it right and all the modern translations got it wrong. Have you checked the KJV, which uses neither "he" nor "she" but opts for the neuter "it"?

    A lot more is written about head crushing than about heel striking. It is important to note the distinction between the two. One is fatal, the other is painful and inconvenient but not fatal. Yes, the serpent strikes the heel of our Lord by and through His crucifixion. It was a cruel blow but of course not fatal because He is alive.

    An intresting thing about Genesis 3:15 is that I read it for years and thought it referred to nothing more than the natural hostility between people and snakes. It just goes to show that the Bible contains so much more than you can gain by a mere superficial reading.
     
  6. JohnDeereFan

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    So, none of the Catholics or defenders of Catholicism care to weigh in on this little nugget, huh?
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    I don't agree with Jeromes translation of it. I'm just recognizing if we adhere to it this is what we get and it doesn't seem to conform to the overall history of salvation.
     
  8. Jerome

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    In the Doauy(1609) one finds this note:
     
  9. Fignar

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    I am Catholic, and wasn't allowed to sign up until I named my religion as Christian. Any attempt to name it as Catholic met with a denial email of my registration. However, I am glad to be here to represent my Church's belief.

    Gen. 3: 15

    "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

    The Catholic Church teaches that this scripture is the foretelling of Mary's coming, and of course her offspring, Christ himself. That the woman spoken of, is of course the Theotokos, or Mother of God. Therefore her offspring, Christ himself, would crush the head of Satan.

    It is both a foretelling of Mary, and one of Christ and his power over Satan.

    That is what the Catholic Church teaches. :)
     
  10. JohnDeereFan

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    So, how does Mary crush the head of Satan? And if it is Mary who defeats Satan, why does the Bible say repeatedly in other places that it's actually Jesus who defeats Satan?
     
  11. Fignar

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    I refer you to my post back to you on the subject. I didn't say Mary crushed Satan's head.

     
  12. JohnDeereFan

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    I didn't say you said it. Are you saying that the Douay-Rheims "Bible" is wrong?
     
  13. Fignar

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    I honestly don't own one of those. I do know that it was put together by Saint Jerome.

    Could you give me the verse from the Douay-Rheims please?
     
  14. JohnDeereFan

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    Genesis 3:15. Didn't you read the OP?
     
  15. Fignar

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    Sorry, just looked it up.

    "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

    I can't say that it is wrong, no. However, I can see how it wouldn't be interpreted right. I only know what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to that scripture. That it was the foretelling of Mary giving birth to Christ, and that because she gave birth to Christ, and accepted the role God wanted her to play, the serpents head would be crushed.

    I can ask some more knowledgeable people about this if you wish, however what the Church teaches on it will be no different than what I posted.

    I would hesitate to call any Bible wrong. Course, there were some many many years after the Douay-Rheims that had so many errors they are even being worked on today.
     
  16. Johnv

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    Douay-Rheims translation is some 500 years old.

    The New American Bible, which is arguably the most common English translation used by Roman Catholics today, reads, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

    The Jerusalem Bible, the other commonly used bible by Catholics, reads, "it will strike at your head, while you strike at its heel", which is identical to the KJV.
     
    #16 Johnv, Jan 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2010
  17. Fignar

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    It is what I use. *nods*
     
  18. JohnDeereFan

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    So then, you acknowledge that Catholicism teaches that it is Mary and not Jesus who will defeat Satan.
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    Wow John. Is there no end to their heresies?
     
  20. lori4dogs

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    NOT TO FEAR! JESUS HAS IT HANDLED. ALL US CATHOLICS ARE DEPENDING ON HIS SACRIFICE FOR SINS AND FAITH IN HIS BLOOD TO BRING US THROUGH REPENTANCE TO SALVATION.


    LIKE IT OR NOT, LOTS MORE OF US CATHOLICS ARE GOING TO SHARE ETERNITY WITH YOU. HOPE YOU CAN WORK OUT YOUR PROBLEMS WITH OUR SALVATION BY THEN. I IMAGINE OUR LADY WILL SIT YOU DOWN AND EXPLAIN IT ALL TO YOU!!

    :laugh:

    THANK YOU JESUS FOR YOUR UNCONDITIONAL ATONEMENT FOR ALL SINNERS. THANK YOU THAT FOR GIVING US THE GRACE TO COME TO YOU IN REPENTANCE AND DECLARE YOU AS LORD AND SAVIOR. THANK YOU THAT YOUR BLOOD IS SUFFICIENT TO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. THANK YO FOR SUCH A CLOUD OF WITNESSES WHO INTERCEDE ON OUR BEHALF.

    LAMB OF GOD YOU TAKE A WAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD, THANK YOU FOR YOUR LOVE AND MERCY!
     

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