Question for Full Preterists

Ahhh yes, the ole "clear language" argument by futurists. The clearest concepts and words found in the New Testament are the time-statements. Yet they are the first thrown under the bus and "monkey around" with by people such as you. Pot meet kettle.

Lets see, what is unclear about this:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Please explain this without "monkeying around" with the text. Then we can move on to dozens of others just like it.

 

Actually there is a lot more on the monkeys plate when we include all three of the first verses in Revelation:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

We have two limitation statements and, for good measure, an indication of what type of literature we have - "signify".

Uhoh - rain. Internet will conk out.

 

I have (to the best of my recollection - ya I sound like a politician) always used the term "final conflagration" (which is different than the battle of Harmegeddo) in my terminology for the 2 Peter passage as the context shows that what immediately follows the conflagration is the "new heavens and the new earth" or at least the expectation thereof.

I have always been aware that these two events (The Second Coming, The Final conflagration) must of necessity be different events.

I have also admitted that there are difficulties with my view or any other view I have had the privileged to study.

But I don’t see the 2 Peter passage as a difficulty experientially because I am in the Church Age and I am certainly looking forward to the eternal state knowing that this temporal heaven and earth will pass away/into the “new heavens and the new earth” of the eternal state. Yes, there will be a thousand years in between but it will pass quickly and seem to be just one day long (or a watch in the night) after a few million aeons with Christ.

I realize that I am probably in disagreement with many dispensational commentaries.

Nonetheless, my view of the 2 Peter passage would be in line with Revelation 20:

Revelation 20

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Verse 11 is another way of saying what Peter says in his 2nd epistle.

Zechariah 2 – Why is Israel being attacked?

Because the nations of the world have gathered together against them to do battle with them.

HankD

 

It's the same reason in these passages we are called heirs instead of inheritors. We have the Spirit of adoption awaiting the adoption.

 

I get tickled when people refer to me as a futurist, as if there are only two options for bible interpretation. I'm not a futurist. I believe that Daniel's 70 weeks have been fulfilled and that Matthew 24:15 has already occured. Thanks for playing, though.

I also get tickled when people run to Revelation to prove their point. I love the book of Revelation, but that is not clear language. It is highly difficult, highly symbolic language. You talk to 10 Christians on a passage from Revelation, let's just say Revelation chapter 8, and you'll likely get 5-10 different interpretations. I said this: "I think this sufficiently proves that to be a perterist you have to monkey around with clear language in scripture." That still stands. You take clear language from the epistles and monkey around with it to fit your view and then run to Revelation to prove your view and fail every time. The reason is because you err in method. Instead of looking at the simpler and more straightforward texts, you base your view on the more difficult sections of scripture. I'm not advocating ignoring the latter, as I've spent much time studying difficult prophecy and prophetic language, but it is dangerous to base too much off of that.

I've got clear language that tells me of a literal bodily resurrection at the end of time, a literal refashioning of this created world at the coming of Jesus Christ, and an eternal punishment for the wicked and eternal peace for the righteous commencing at the same time. The only way you can overthrow those things is to monkey around with that clear language and try in vain to tell me that Paul and Peter and Jesus and John didn't intend me to read it the way it is written and take the simple intuitive meaning.

 

Hank, if I am following you correctly, I also tend to believe that many prophesies that have been assigned to the tribulation are actually speaking of all the nations coming against Israel after the millennium.

For one thing, many prophesies speak of Israel living in peace in unwalled cities when these nations come against it. I cannot see this happening in three and a half years during the tribulation. I believe this is speaking of Israel during the millennium.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This passage in Ezekiel 38 lines up with Revelations 20.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So I believe Ezekiel 38 is speaking of all the nations who come against Israel at the end of the millennium, the battle of God and Magog. For one thousand years Israel will live in peace and unwalled cities. We see in both accounts these nations will be destroyed by God raining fire down upon them.

If Jesus came in 70 A.D. as the Preterists claim, when did he rule for a thousand years? When did all these nations come against Israel and God destroyed them with fire?

 

I agree RAdam, though I have a dispensational method of interpreting scripture, of all my faith beliefs, eschatology-things-to-come is the area in which I am not overly dogmatic (though I defend them) for just the reason(s) you state apart of course from the traditonal views you have mentioned above, they are essential.


HankD

 

Much is made of Revelation 20. To me, it is one of the most difficult passages in the bible. Just consider the diversity of opinion by Christians on the chapter. I've heard numerous explanations on the chapter, and to be honest none have truly satisfied me. To me, people make too much of this chapter. To place so much of one's end times beliefs on a chapter which I'm not sure anyone has properly interpreted just doesn't work in my book.

 

I think you may be correct concerning Ezekiel 38 Winman.

These are the difficulties to which I have admitted.

Trying to differentiate between the OT prophetic events coming upon Israel during the Tribulation (Jacob's trouble) and Restored Israel of Revelation 20.

There is a school of thought that just before the Millenium during the Tribulation, God will lift the veil and reveal Jesus Christ to the Jewish people both in and out of the land (the modern Nation of Israel) as their Messiah. From these He will select the 144,000.

As the theory goes, during the Great Tribulation, God will gather all Israel
in the land and the gather all the nations of the world in the Valley of Megiddo (aka the Valley of Jehoshophat) in their attempt to destroy them as they have tried before so many times.

Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
...
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.​

Zechariah 12

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.​

This may align with Revelation 16

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

HankD​

 

Hank

Yes, the scriptures seem to speak of nations coming against Israel twice.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelations 19 speaks of before Satan is bound one thousand years. It says he will come with his armies. In Zechariah 14 it says the Lord will come with his saints to fight against the nations that come against Israel. I believe the armies on white horses in Rev 19 could be the saints mentioned in Zech 14.

Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

I am pretty traditional in my views. If Jesus comes with all the saints to save Jerusalem, then there must be a premillennial rapture in my opinion.

But you are correct, there are difficulties with every view.

 

Lastday

Winman and HankD,

We are a trio holding quite exactly to the same point of view as far as I see.
I too have wondered if the Gog and Magog invaders in Ezekiel and Rev.20 might both refer to the rebellion under Satan at the end of the Millennium. There are two important factors that seem to clash under this possible interpretation.
Note two ideas that stand out for a prior fulfillment in the Ezekiel account:
ONE:
Prior to the invasion of the nations into Israel, Israel does'nt Know the Lord
TWO:
"Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezek.38:23.
And the house of Israel will know I am the Lord their God FROM THAT DAY
ONWARD. And the nations will know the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity...and I HID MY FACE FROM THEM..." Ezek.39:22-24.

Why would it take 1000 years to convince the nations that God is the God of Israel? Will the nations NOT know this during the entire Millennial period??
Again, isn't the purpose for God's destruction of Gog and Magog first of all that ISRAEL herself might "know He is their God AFTER hiding His face from both Ephraim and Judah for 2000 years???

Brethren, I believe there will be two periods of so-called Mideast "peace" prior to the SC...one to convince Israel and the nations that God controls the outcome of their attempted destruction of Israel!

The first period of peace may be engineered by Mystery Babylon the Great which will "reign over the kings of earth for a short time" prior to the 70th 7. The movement to establish Mystery Babylon may itself involve ten years!!

Not only Israel, but her enemies, must be forced to realize Jehovah is on the side of Israel. Even the Jihadists need to be convinced that it is better to work from within the Harlot System like a Trojan Horse before they can hope to invade Israel after destroying the city of Babylon in "one hour with fire"!!!

I think we may have two new adherents to our view with Thomas15 saying
that the Covenant with Ephraim and Israel will be fulfilled 1000 years BEFORE
the "eternal" Davidic Covenant goes into effect at the end of the Millennium!

Thomas15 is suggesting that the New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah (Heb.8:8) is not "eternal" and therefore is not the same as the
Davidic Covenant for Israel and all the nations after the Millennium. For the Kingdom of David the word "eternal" occurs 4 times in Ezek.37:25-26!!

But the purpose of the New Covenant is that "all men, as well as Israel, might know the Lord...from the least to the greatest". Israel does NOT yet
know about this "New Covenant". They don't know the Old Covenant is "about to vanish". Heb.8:11-13; Jer.31:34!!!

Only at the start of the Millennium will God fulfill His promise to "remember their sins no more"! The promise that they will "know the Lord from that time onward"
requires that they realize He is about to restore them as "His People"!! That fact, AND the war of God and Magog, must apply to the start of the Millennial rule
of Israel over the nations...not to the Eternal State
under which the Davidic Covenant will go into effect!!!

It is during the Eternal State that the "Kings of the nations will bring their honor and glory into the New Jerusalem...and be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life"...a condition that will exist even during the Millennium and the necessity for the nations to worship annually in Jerusalem on earth or forfeit the rain they need for their crops . Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14. Ezek.47:12. Zech.14:16+
Mel
Mel

 

Lastday

I understand what you are saying about Eze 38:23 but I think this is explained in Rev 20.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured

In Eze 38:23 it does say say the Lord will make himself known in the eyes of many nations and they shall know he is the Lord. But in Rev 20:8 it says Satan will "deceive the nations". I do not believe true believers can be deceived, so I believe the world will be inhabited by people who simply obey Christ because he rules with a rod of iron (Rev 19:15) but are not believers. In a sense, they are like the angels who rebelled against God, they knew he is God but believed they could take his rule from him. Satan will deceive these people as he did the angels and cause them to rise up against Christ's rule. I could be wrong.

 

Lastday

Winman,
Your write:

I agree with your observation about unbelievers parading as true worshipers of Christ during the Millennium. You bring up this important matter with respect to "unbelieving nations" during the Millennium. But Satan's deception of countless numbers of people at the End of the Millennium is not a commentary on whether they "know the Lord" as a result of the Gog and Magog invasion of Israel!

The "knowledge of the Lord by all men...from the least to the greatest" will apply to all peoples from the very start of the Millennium...after they know
the reason for Israel's 2000-year period of punishment while God "hid His
face from both Ephraim and Judah as His People". They must realize He is
their God who has "forgotten the former sins" AFTER the Invasion of Israel by the nations...not after they have known Him for 1000 years!!

There seems to be two future stages to the establishment of God's will over
the Kingdom on Earth. The nations who feign worship of God during the first stage, i.e., the Millennium, must be identified and "cast into Hell because they
failed the test of WORKS in their mistreatment of the least of His brethren".
Matt.25:31-46. The reunited and restored People of God, the fleshly remnant of the descendants of Abraham, must rule over the nations to manifest God's mercy to all mankind so that there will be no excuse for the rebellion of the "goat nations"!!!

Only with the onset of the Davidic Covenant at the End of the Millennium will ALL the nations share in the Plan of God for all eternity! The Prayer taught by Jesus will finally be fulfilled that "God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven"!! Jesus will "separate the sheep nations from the goat nations" and the Kings of the sheep nations will "bring their honor and glory into the New
Jerusalem to be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life...forever"!!! Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel

 

Waiting for the adoption – full consummation of the New Covenant.

The redemption of our body – to be redeemed back into the presence of God—in our glorified spiritual body.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

To be honest, because of preterism and the searching of the Scriptures in that regard, I have been made more aware of this fact that although we are sealed by have been given the earnest of the Spirit in regards to the New and Everlasting Covenant, we yet groan (as well as all creation) awaiting the final culmination of that New Covenant, our glorious resurrected body.

So, I agree with Logos1, but differ in the details (timing - we are still waiting, etc).


HankD

 

I believe it is the saints themselves that will judge the world (unsaved) during the Millennium.

1 Cor 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is why I believe in the premillennial rapture. In Zechariah 14 it says the Lord will come and fight for Israel against all the nations that come against it with all the saints (Zech 14:5).

These armies will be defeated and the Millennium will begin, Israel will live in peace in unwalled cities. Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. This must speak of the unsaved, saved people will willingly obey him. But when Satan is loosed he will deceive the nations and bring them against Jerusalem. But not only Jerusalem, the scriptures also say the "camp of the saints".

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I am not sure if the camp of the saints and the beloved city (Jerusalem) are one in the same or two different entities. I get the impression they are separate.

But there will be a camp of the saints during the Millennium, and I believe this is how the world will be ruled.

 

Lastday

HankD,
Concession to Logos1?

According to Logos, the New Covenant does not include a literal, physical
resurrection of glorified bodies of flesh and bones to be like that of Christ. His
idea of the "firstfruits" agrees with ours with respect only to salvation; it does
not agree with our view of the "adoption, the redemption of the body in which
we presently groan". I think maybe you should modify your statement to
reflect the incompatible nature of the two interpretations that affect every
thing we believe about the future of this Temple indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Mel

 

Lastday

Winman,
I totally agree that the Saints will "judge the nations" during the Millennium!
But the judgment of Goat Nations, IMO, occurs at the end of the Millennium!!
It is a judgment conditioned by the treatment they give to Christ's brethren!!!
I had written:

I also expanded on this Millennial period of testing all mankind:

Winman and Hank
I suggest that the Old Covenant, in the minds of Israel and Judah, will actually expire when they embrace Yeshua as their Messiah. The New Covenant will still have sacrificial aspects of the Old Covenant. The Old passes away finally for them...even the Day of Atonement is discontinued. But the New will also be in effect only during the Millennium until the "eternal" Davidic Covenant goes into effect...at the final judgment by JESUS which separates the Sheep nations from the Goat nations!!!
Mel

 

I know mel and so does everyone else where we stand RE: Believers will have glorified flesh and bone resurrected bodies made alive by the Spirit of God.

Preterist apparently believe in a spiritual body resurrection. The question of what it consists of is still unclear to me.

However, I repeat, everyone knows where we stand.

I dare say that much, perhaps most, of Christianity believes similarly to preterists concerning he resurrection of humanity even those who wear the label "dispensationalist".

That does not excuse anyone for their error but after all the debating of this thread, I felt I needed to find some ground of agreement with Logos1.

HankD

 

Lastday

HankD,
I appreciate your desire to find some eschatological ground of common
interest with Logos. You wrote:

The problem in seeking a common ground is complicated by the Preterist's
view that every Believer is glorified when he dies physically. There is then no
physical existence of any kind. Is this not an admission that "sin and death"
have no hope of being eliminated from the human existence? I don't think
Logos can give you an answer about the nature of his eternal state of existence except to say it is "spiritual". Asterisktom says it will not be
"ethereal"; yet both "ethereal and spiritual" indicate it is immaterial. He also
dismisses the idea of worshiping at Jerusalem since God honors those who
"worship Him in spirit".

The final song/prayer of the Martyrs is that, with the last one of their number having been killed (those who must be killed until the end of time), the nations must "come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord". Rev.15:4. This is predicted as well by Zechariah as a requirement for the nations when Christ becomes King...with the penalty for failure to worship the Lord annually at Jerusalem as one of receiving "no rain for their crops". Zech.14:9-21.

I find no common existing basis for fellowship of any kind on the subject of
eschatology! Debate is a constant battle of words and not one of a mutual buildup or encouragement of our faith in the Lord Jesus!! We need to build
a spirit of grace and respect that prepares us for the coming tribulation!!!
Mel