Question for pre-trib folks...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jesus is Lord, May 12, 2004.

  1. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord
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    I am pre-trib. But I always hear and read that there is nothing that has to happen before the rapture so it could take place every time. What exactly are they talking about? Is there nothing which has to happen before it? No signs or something else?
     
  2. Ronald

    Ronald
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    If you will read carefully Paul's prophecy to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1 thru 8 you will see in these verses that the saints will NOT be "gathered" to the Lord until the final apostasy and THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED. This has not occurred yet. Also the same chapter tells how at Christ coming our Lord will destroy the Antichrist by the brightness of his appearance.verse 8. This is hardly a "secret rapture" unknown to the whole world at large.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    JiL, the pretrib view is correct. Nothing needs to occur prior to the rapture.

    The 2 Thess. text is about his return to establish his kingdom. The Lord gave many signs about that.
     
  4. Trotter

    Trotter
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    Yes, Danny. As far as the Rapture is concerned, there does not have to be any event to usher it in.

    I pray it happens soon.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Jesus is Lord,

    Matt 24:29-31 telling us, our gathering together shall be immeidately after tribulation. None word saying, 'before' tribulation find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24. Clear, Christ tells us, He will come back AFTER the tribulation, not before.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    AMen, Pretribulation Brother
    Daniel David -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    DD,

    HOW can you be sure that pre-trib view is correct??? You need the evidences with verses to prove why do you think pre-trib view is correct, please. Thanks.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    that the Rapture/resurrection happens before
    the Tribulation period judgments begin.
    (the rapture is callled the "falling away"
    here.

    Here is my old writing on the subject:

    --------------------------------------
    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    DeafPost - We understand your incredulity over it (since your name implies your theology) but sorry, the pre-trib position is correct and the rapture is a signless, timeless event.

    While there are signs of the Tribulation and of the Return of the King, there is no sign of the event that "kick-starts" the last days.

    If so, of course, then people would be giving dates and times of Christ's return. Like Jack Van Impe or Tim LaHaye have tried to do.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The problem is not David Daniel's. The problem is
    that even when surrounded with many
    unarguable proofs from the scripture, you
    don't see the hope possible in the
    pretribulation rapture viewpoint.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed and Dr. Griffin,

    My time is out, I have to work tonight - 3rd shift. I will reply back to you more on that tomorrow. Also, tomorrow night is my off from work, I will continue post more on that.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Please note that some type of Postribber is the
    first in this topic to mention a "secret rapture".
    No pretrib who posts on this Baptist Board
    uses the term "secret rapture"; the only
    users on the Baptist Board who
    initiate the phrase
    "secret rapture" is posties.

    Obviously the posters are bringing in
    arguments from off the board. Sorry,
    i don't have time to argue with off-the-board
    students of the rapture who have all day to
    do nothing but think of things to say.
    I do love Brother DeafPosttrib cause he
    is a worker person like i am (only UGH!
    he works a late shift).

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Jesus is Lord

    Jesus is Lord
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    I don´t see the problem in Matthew 24. Of course, Jesus will gather the living saints at His 2nd coming. But the text does not say that this is the rapture. In fact... when he comes back in Matthew 24... why is there a rapture? Why do so many Christians ignore clear scriptures concerning our deliverance from the coming wrath? Why are they willing to believe in an "elevator-rapture" (up-down... in the twinkling of an eye) which isn´t really a rapture (the "caught up" in 1. Thessalonians 4:17 means "to snatch away" or "to take somewhere else")?
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Jesus is Lord,

    Word - 'rapture' is not find anywhere in the Bible, we know that. Rapture means 'caught up' of 1 Thess 4:17.

    Of course, word 'rapture' is not find anywhere in Matthew chapter 24.

    But, you can easily find verse 31 saying, 'gather together his elect'. It is very obivously speak of the gathering together of the saints at Christ's coming.

    'gather together' is also find in 2 Thess 2:1. Both are same describe.

    Yes, you are right Matthew 24 talks about Jesus' coming. Isn't rapture include Christ's coming also?

    Isn't 'coming' of Matt 24:30 same as 1 Thess 4:15 -'coming'?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    I believe what you saying of pretribbers at baptistboard, no one saying rapture is a secert coming.

    But, in fact, I have been seen so many pretribbers out there, in books, they saying rapture is a secert coming. So, in the fact that the pretribulationism doctrine actual teaching that the rapture shall come like as "secert" coming. Of course, NOT every pretribbers saying. I am glad that some pretribbers saying raptuyre is not a secet coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  16. Aki

    Aki
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    two phases of the second coming: rapture and revelation. the rapture is for the church, while revelation is mainly for the jews. the rapture was given no signs, while the revelation was given many.

    yet, the interval between these two occasions is a small seven-year period. we have, however, the condition of the first few years of the tribulation, which happens immediately after the rapture. that would be world peace, one world government and other political and economic unification and progress. these things should evolve years prior to the tribulation, for such take time. and since the tribulation should happen immediately after the rapture, we can deduce that the events leading to one-world politics and and economy as a sign that the rapture is near, since these signs show that the tribulation is near, which comes a second close to the rapture.
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    I thought all Baptists were pre-tribbers before I came to the BB. That is all I've ever heard preached in any SBC, GARB, or IFB church I've ever attended. Never heard of it being secret either. Didn't know there was such a bird as a post-trib Baptist. Boy did I get shocked after a few days around here! :eek: I'm still not quite over it. :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  18. Trotter

    Trotter
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    Me, to, LadyEagle.

    I was totally aghast at what I have discovered that some Baptists believe regarding the coming of Christ. I mean, even without being taken by the hand and taught, I saw that the Rapture was given as fact in the NT.

    But now I see all these who choose not to believe that...yeah, my jaw is still on the floor.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  19. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
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    I am thoroughly convinced that Paul believed that Jesus could return at any moment and catch him up to heaven.

    I am also convinced that many other great Christians throughout the centuries believed the same thing.

    If they are correct, then they are saying that there are no necessary fulfillment events before this particular return of Christ for the Church.

    The logic for this has been presented on many debate threads in the past two months.

    As I have said before several times, the non-rapture theology came into existence when there had not been a nation called Israel around for many thousands of years and incorrect theology was shaped by reading the newspaper and looking at the map or globe instead of believing God's unconditional and irrevokable promises to national Israel.
     
  20. Aki

    Aki
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    while i am a pre-trib, i am not surprised that there are baptists that are post-trib. i think many baptists started our just like that, but have changed to pre-trib over time.
     

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