Question for pre-trib folks...

If you will read carefully Paul's prophecy to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1 thru 8 you will see in these verses that the saints will NOT be "gathered" to the Lord until the final apostasy and THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED. This has not occurred yet. Also the same chapter tells how at Christ coming our Lord will destroy the Antichrist by the brightness of his appearance.verse 8. This is hardly a "secret rapture" unknown to the whole world at large.

 

JiL, the pretrib view is correct. Nothing needs to occur prior to the rapture.

The 2 Thess. text is about his return to establish his kingdom. The Lord gave many signs about that.

 

Yes, Danny. As far as the Rapture is concerned, there does not have to be any event to usher it in.

I pray it happens soon.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Jesus is Lord,

Matt 24:29-31 telling us, our gathering together shall be immeidately after tribulation. None word saying, 'before' tribulation find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24. Clear, Christ tells us, He will come back AFTER the tribulation, not before.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

AMen, Pretribulation Brother
Daniel David -- Preach it!

 

DD,

HOW can you be sure that pre-trib view is correct??? You need the evidences with verses to prove why do you think pre-trib view is correct, please. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

that the Rapture/resurrection happens before
the Tribulation period judgments begin.
(the rapture is callled the "falling away"
here.

Here is my old writing on the subject:

--------------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture.

 

The problem is not David Daniel's. The problem is
that even when surrounded with many
unarguable proofs from the scripture, you
don't see the hope possible in the
pretribulation rapture viewpoint.

 

Ed and Dr. Griffin,

My time is out, I have to work tonight - 3rd shift. I will reply back to you more on that tomorrow. Also, tomorrow night is my off from work, I will continue post more on that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Please note that some type of Postribber is the
first in this topic to mention a "secret rapture".
No pretrib who posts on this Baptist Board
uses the term "secret rapture"; the only
users on the Baptist Board who
initiate the phrase
"secret rapture" is posties.

Obviously the posters are bringing in
arguments from off the board. Sorry,
i don't have time to argue with off-the-board
students of the rapture who have all day to
do nothing but think of things to say.
I do love Brother DeafPosttrib cause he
is a worker person like i am (only UGH!
he works a late shift).

 

Jesus is Lord,

Word - 'rapture' is not find anywhere in the Bible, we know that. Rapture means 'caught up' of 1 Thess 4:17.

Of course, word 'rapture' is not find anywhere in Matthew chapter 24.

But, you can easily find verse 31 saying, 'gather together his elect'. It is very obivously speak of the gathering together of the saints at Christ's coming.

'gather together' is also find in 2 Thess 2:1. Both are same describe.

Yes, you are right Matthew 24 talks about Jesus' coming. Isn't rapture include Christ's coming also?

Isn't 'coming' of Matt 24:30 same as 1 Thess 4:15 -'coming'?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

I believe what you saying of pretribbers at baptistboard, no one saying rapture is a secert coming.

But, in fact, I have been seen so many pretribbers out there, in books, they saying rapture is a secert coming. So, in the fact that the pretribulationism doctrine actual teaching that the rapture shall come like as "secert" coming. Of course, NOT every pretribbers saying. I am glad that some pretribbers saying raptuyre is not a secet coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

two phases of the second coming: rapture and revelation. the rapture is for the church, while revelation is mainly for the jews. the rapture was given no signs, while the revelation was given many.

yet, the interval between these two occasions is a small seven-year period. we have, however, the condition of the first few years of the tribulation, which happens immediately after the rapture. that would be world peace, one world government and other political and economic unification and progress. these things should evolve years prior to the tribulation, for such take time. and since the tribulation should happen immediately after the rapture, we can deduce that the events leading to one-world politics and and economy as a sign that the rapture is near, since these signs show that the tribulation is near, which comes a second close to the rapture.

 

I thought all Baptists were pre-tribbers before I came to the BB. That is all I've ever heard preached in any SBC, GARB, or IFB church I've ever attended. Never heard of it being secret either. Didn't know there was such a bird as a post-trib Baptist. Boy did I get shocked after a few days around here! I'm still not quite over it.

 

Me, to, LadyEagle.

I was totally aghast at what I have discovered that some Baptists believe regarding the coming of Christ. I mean, even without being taken by the hand and taught, I saw that the Rapture was given as fact in the NT.

But now I see all these who choose not to believe that...yeah, my jaw is still on the floor.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I am thoroughly convinced that Paul believed that Jesus could return at any moment and catch him up to heaven.

I am also convinced that many other great Christians throughout the centuries believed the same thing.

If they are correct, then they are saying that there are no necessary fulfillment events before this particular return of Christ for the Church.

The logic for this has been presented on many debate threads in the past two months.

As I have said before several times, the non-rapture theology came into existence when there had not been a nation called Israel around for many thousands of years and incorrect theology was shaped by reading the newspaper and looking at the map or globe instead of believing God's unconditional and irrevokable promises to national Israel.

 

while i am a pre-trib, i am not surprised that there are baptists that are post-trib. i think many baptists started our just like that, but have changed to pre-trib over time.