QUESTION RE: The Rapture?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    10,468
    Likes Received:
    138
    Please explain how we can call this event (the return of Jesus, i.e., I Thess. 4:16-17) the rapture, when the word "rapture" (describing this event, that is) does not appear in Scripture?

    And yes, this is open to debate (Amy) :thumbs: so please have at. I am truly interested in what you believe and how you can use this non-existent word to describe an event as important as this will be!
     
    #1 righteousdude2, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2012
  2. RustySword

    RustySword
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm at work without my Greek or Latin stuff, but IIRC the word "rapture" is actually taken from the Latin Vulgate, somewhere in 1 Corinthians 15, and does have to do with being taken up.

    The word IS in Scripture, just not in English. The question is not IF there is a "rapture," but WHAT it is and WHEN it is.
     
  3. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    there are basically 2 opinions on this:

    1. The "rapture" (taking up of the saints) will coincide with Jesus' return.

    2. The "rapture" will be a separate, prior even to Jesus 2nd coming.
     
  4. govteach51

    govteach51
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would I like to think there will be a Pre-Trib rapture? Yes. Do I think there will be a Pre-Trib rapture? No.
     
  5. Salty

    Salty
    Expand Collapse
    20,000 Posts Club
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    22,134
    Likes Received:
    221
    ( RD2, May I get that thread back on the OP?)

    The same way we believe in the Trinity, even though the word is never in scripture.

    According to this dictionary rapture simply means to be transported from one one place to another.

    So I suppose you could say that NASA raptured the astronauts to the moon.
     
  6. thomas15

    thomas15
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    0
    You can call it what ever you want but the term in question is an english word to describe in one word an event that is believers being caught up to meet their Lord in the air. 1 Thess 4:13-17
     
  7. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    1 Thessalonians 4
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​


    The Greek word for caught up is the future tense of harpazo.
    Here is another scripture use of the word:

    2 Corinthians 12
    2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.​

    Supposedly the word known today as "rapture" was taken from the Latin Vulgate by a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera who published futurist articles.

    Latin Vulgate
    2 Corinthians 12:2 scio hominem in Christo ante annos quattuordecim sive in corpore nescio sive extra corpus nescio Deus scit raptum eiusmodi usque ad tertium caelum

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.​

    If the phrase "the rature" is not to your liking and you want to be scriptural via the original language you can use "the harpazo" instead.

    HankD
     
    #7 HankD, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2012
  8. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    believe that the term rapture was found in latin Vulgate, as it is" snatched away" per greek...

    Many would say that refers to a rapture, just we disagree on timing, as some see it distinct from second coming, others same event!

    IF we stuck to just using terms in bible for doctrine, could not see eitherbible/Trinity in scriptures as used for terms!
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    Some dispensationalist (e.g. J Vernon Mcgee) see the Second Coming of Christ as a two phase proposition starting with the Rapture (the snatching away of the Church) and ending with His "appearing" 7 years later (post tribulation-pre-millennium) in which "every eye shall see Him".

    Order of events:

    The Rature (harpazo - remove the Church).
    The Tribulation (to judge the world - oikoumene).
    The Millennium (1000 year reign of Christ).

    I did hear one Mcgee sermon which included the Millennium in "The day of the Lord".

    The above not without difficulties and with lots of detail variations.

    HankD
     
  10. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    99
    Rapture is completely in the Bible. Particularly in the Greek the word harpadzo means to "catch up, or catch away." It is used to describe when Paul was taken up to heaven and correlates with the OT descriptions of what happens to Enoch and Elijah.

    I don't understand this whole complaint about something not being the Bible being a case against its worthfulness for theology. The Bible is such a different document using languages that most who make the complaint are unfamiliar with. In theology we use concepts and language which roots itself in the Bible bu finds a better expression in our terminology.

    Rapture is absolutely in the Bible. To say it isn't just shows someone hasn't done their homework or knows the languages. Now, when it happens...now that is a god theological conversation.
     
  11. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0

    good post!

    Would add that there are dispy premils that see rapture as either pre/Mid/post timing

    Historic premil see basically rapture/second same event, as would A Mils they would disgree on IF was a earthly millinual reigning after that eventor a final state ushering in!

    of course, pretierist view this has already has happened!
     
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    Right, some even question the target of the harpazo, possibly not heaven but some other place of protection from the wrath of God which is to come upon all the world (oikoumene as opposed to cosmos).


    HankD
     
  13. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really have hard time seeing a post trib rapture biblcaslly, as to hold to that, seems one has to hold Church and Isreal being same to god, and use the 10 Plagues as 'types" of greta tribulation!

    mid trib is more interesting, as they would hold to church going thru wrath of man, experiencing same trials/tribulations as the church always has, but are removed/spared the Wrath of God in mid point forward being put on the earth!
     
  14. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,184
    Likes Received:
    326
    Yes, I've heard of that view as well.

    HankD
     
  15. Bobby Hamilton

    Bobby Hamilton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    569
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what are the scriptures talking about when mentions are made of the church not going through the tribulation?

    I don't have a real firm belief on when I think the Rapture happens. I don't think it's after/at the end of the tribulation. I've always leaned for a pre-trib, but I also don't think that the Rapture automatically ushers in the tribulation either. We just know that's a 7 year period, right? There could be time between the Rapture and the tribulation?
     
  16. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    2,324
    Likes Received:
    0
    pre tribbers hold rapture hits, then immediatly into greta tribulation

    Mid s hold rapture hits Antichrist "officially" revealed

    post see it essentially as second coming!
     
  17. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ, Himself, said that the lost would be "raptured" out of the earth by His angels first & then the believers. There is only one Second Coming, at which time He will reap all people from the earth & then destroy & recreate the universe.

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matt 25:31-32)

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2Peter 3:10-13)

    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn........
    Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:24-42)
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    What?? Jesus never said the lost would be raptured. How did you come up with that?
     
  19. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    I've always held that there is a "transition period" just like there was a "transition period"
    between the 2nd Chapter of Acts and the (genetic) Israelite Sect of the Nazarenes
    and
    the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and the subsequent transition to the Gentile Church,
    the Bride of Christ, under Pauline Doctrine.

    The problem is somehow accounting for the sudden "disappearance" of millions of people... unless
    they are somehow simultaneously "replaced" so it becomes unapparent and "seamless".

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie - 2 Thes 2:11
     
  20. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    857
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you not read the passage or see that "rapture" was in quotes? Believers & unbelievers will be taken out in the same manner, by angels. I am using the language of the op. Personally, I don't care what you call it. Just remember how Jesus describes it.
     

Share This Page

Loading...