Question re; Your definition/understanding of "Works" and "Grace"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by terrence, Mar 2, 2010.

  1. terrence

    terrence
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    There was a certain man, A commander in the army of Aram who had leprosy. A slave girl captured on a raid told him that a prophet in Samaria could cure him.

    Naaman went to the King of Israel with a letter from his own king. When Elisha heard about it and heard that the King had torn his clothes he told the King to send Naaman to him.

    Elisha instructed Naaman by messenger to wash himself in the Jordan seven times and that he would be cured. At first Naaman went away angry but his servants convinced him to do as the prophet directed--and he was cured! His skin was like that of a newborn and he became a believer and worshipper of God. 2 Kings 5

    So, was Naaman cured by grace--or by works? If grace, then who was it that bestowed grace upon him? The prophet? God?

    If you say that it was by works he was cured of leprosy; then who did the works? Was it Naaman who cured himself--by works- or was it a work either 1)of the Prophet or 2) of God?
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    Welcome to the Baptist Board, terrence.

    It will be helpful to you to read the rules, which allow only Baptists to post in the Baptist-only sections. I notice that you list your denomination as "Christian," which, in my opinion, is a bit too vague. Do you mean Disciples of Christ?

    At any rate, you are more than welcome to post in the Other Christian Denominations section, as well as those open to all Christians.

    Also, we'd like to get to know you a little better. So please go up to the top section Welcome to the Baptist Board, and fill us in. Give us all the juicy details you can, but you have permission to leave any skeletons in the closet.
     
  3. terrence

    terrence
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    After I posted, I couldn't find it where I thot it would be and when I did I saw that I had posted in the Baptist's Only section. In all truth I hadn't noticed all the various forums because I came in on Google I suppose. I do apologize. It was a post on fundamental christians that drew me in and I can't even find that thread now.
     
  4. Jon-Marc

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    I welcome you to the Baptist Board, Terrance. It was through obedience to God's commandment that healed him. Also, it was the act of humbling himself to use that particular water that was not known for it's cleanliness. God wanted to humble the proud man.
     
  5. Aaron

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    It was by grace through faith. His going down into the Jordan seven times was merely the evidence of his faith.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    James 2 "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

    Naaman is a good example of someone who had a tiny bit of faith - but was rewarded with health - anyway.
     
  7. Doubting Thomas

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    Yet Naaman wasn't actually healed of the leprosy until AFTER he came up out of the Jordan that 7th time. Going down into the Jordan was the expression of his faith as well as the instrument (or occasion) of God's gracious action.
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Terrence, you hit on a great example of a GIFT with conditions, which by the way is found in more than one passage.

    Concerning faith, I do not necessarily see Naaman exhibiting much faith, except possibly in a little girl in a small measure. I see great faith exhibited by a little girl who believed in God of Israel. When Naaman was told what to do (and it was not to have ‘faith only’ by the way) he was wroth the Scriptures state. How is it exercising faith to be angry when we are told what to do and then turn away from the commandment to go our own way???

    What we are witnessing in this passage is, once again, the granting of a GIFT (the healing of leprosy) gained by the fulfilling of certain conditions. Yes this GIFT of healing had conditions to be met, but Naaman could no more work for his healing than one can work for salvation, which also by the way has clearly mandated conditions. The grounds of this healing was nothing other than the grace of God, yet this GIFT would not be bestowed apart from Naaman’s obedience. If there ever was a case of receiving a GIFT from God as a direct result of the faith of others, this appears to me a great example. :thumbs:

    I do not believe this is a great example of how to obtain salvation, for his healing came almost in spite of his faith not because of it, but it is a great example of the distinction between the grounds and conditions of a GIFT from God. Thanks Terrence for bringing it to our attention. :thumbs:
     
    #8 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 25, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2010
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You show what appears to me as absolute blindness to the truth of the matter Aaron. Whatever faith he had was absolutely useless in obtaining the gift apart from the obedience of dipping seven times in that muddy river. What you denote as ‘merely’ God denotes as the very means by which the gift was granted or denied. The dipping seven times was the works demanded by God, yet Naaman in no wise worked for the gift. The dipping seven times was thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ There was not one bit of merit in the dipping of the Jordan, hence nothing Naaman did merited him his gift of healing. None the less he would have never been healed apart from his work of obedience. He was not healed for the sake of his obedience, but neither would he have been healed apart from his obedience. His obedience was a condition to his healing, not the grounds thereof. Naaman was required by God to do something, i.e., fulfill the conditions mandated by God, yet Naaman did not get ‘healed by works.’ His healing was a gift from God, a gift that came with conditions and as such a conditional gift.

    In like manner salvation is a conditional gift from God and comes with clearly mandated and stated conditions, without which no one shall be saved. Those clearly stated conditions are repentance, faith, and continued obedience until the end.
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Well stated JM.:thumbs:

    It will be through obedience to God’s commands that any of us will make it into God’s heavenly kingdom as well.
     
  11. Peggy

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    Agreed. How can you say you are a Christian if you don't obey and follow Christ?
     
  12. DHK

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    Many people do. Unless you are God you cannot judge the heart.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    The way we do judge whether a person is a Christian or not is by the doctrine they believe. You cannot believe that works is required for salvation and be saved. Works does not save. Christ alone saves.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    That fact should be clear enough.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Amen Peggy.:thumbs:

    Faith apart from obedience is a misnomer, or Scripturally coined, simply “dead.”
    1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Note that the word ‘ought’ implies the necessary abilities requisite of fulfilling the command of obedience.

    1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    So much for ‘faith alone.”
     
  14. DHK

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    So you don't believe Jesus in John 14:6, that he is the only way to heaven?
    There is no other way but him. You deny this statement by Him?
    You assert that works must be the way to heaven and not Christ alone, by faith alone, as Christ demanded. I wouldn't have thought that you would infer Christ to have lied about a statement he made about Himself.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Please DHK. Jesus is indeed the only way to heaven, but without obeying the commands Jesus gave, no one will be saved. Here is just one such command by Jesus Himself that must be complied with. Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    God requires man to do something to be saved besides have faith DHK. God requires obedience. Just as Naaman had to be obedient to be healed, we must be obedient to be saved. Christ never “demanded” “faith alone” as you state. If He did, show us the verse where He stated and “demanded” “faith alone.” If you cannot find such a verse, and you claim there is one, what does such a claim as you assert make you?

    Christ is no liar DHK. It is your own miscalculation of what is, in reality, the truth that is in error.
     
  16. DHK

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    Repentance is the flip side of faith. It is done in order to be saved, not to keep on being saved. You still deny Christ's words even in that statement. Christ did not say "Repent and do good works and you shall be saved." That is heresy. It is a false gospel. It is what Hinduism and the rest of the world religions teach; not Christianity.

    Salvation has always been by faith alone in Christ alone. Anything else but, is not Christianity.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Still waiting for the verse DHK.
     
  18. DHK

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    Which one?
    You don't believe Jesus when he simply said:

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Is Jesus the way or works the way? There is no in-between. Choose one or the other. As for me, I have chosen Jesus.
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Still waiting for the verse DHK, the one that "demands" "faith alone."
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
     

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