Questions about the Calvinist viewpoint.

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Sapper Woody, May 29, 2014.

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  1. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody
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    As most of you know if you've read my previous posts, I am non-Cal. What I hope to accomplish with this thread is to gain some insight as to the Calvinist system. I'll be honest right up front: I am not interested in becoming a Calvinist. But there are some viewpoints that I'd like some more info on. I am not wanting to argue and try to tell you why I think I'm right. I am just wanting to understand what/why you believe in the Calvinist system.

    I'll start by sharing my viewpoint.

    I don't believe that man is irresistibly drawn to God, but that man can't just "decide" to be saved. I believe he has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, and then at that point he has to make a choice to accept Christ or reject him.

    I believe that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all mankind's sins, but only those who allow Christ to apply it to their life through salvation can take advantage of this atonement.

    I believe man is born with a sin nature, and without Christ any good that they do is viewed by God as "filthy rags", but once they accept Christ, God sees them as sinless (as he only sees the blood) even though they still sin.

    To make this discussion easy to follow, I suggest we go through TULIP one letter at a time. So, naturally we'll start with total depravity. As I understand it (and of course, in my limited understanding I could be wrong) Calvinists believe that man is born without the ability to seek God, or the desire to be saved. If this is the case, I partially agree. As I said, I believe it takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit for a man to see himself as he is and desire to be saved. But I don't believe that only a select few will have that opportunity. I believe that opportunity will be given to every man at least once in their lifetime.

    I'd like to start the discussion on that note. I may not always respond right away, as I plan on studying verses and issues brought up in this discussion. But if I don't respond right away, I'm not ignoring a post. I'm just searching it out.

    Also, I plan on ignoring any posts that derail the thread into an argument, especially straw men.

    Thank you in advance for your time in this matter.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Sapper Woody

    Hello SW
    We should all be interested in finding truth wherever that is. We are all professed believers so just continue to search out the truth.

    ,

    Only the sheep are irresistibly or effectually drawn to saving faith. Others resist God until they perish.
    they cannot 1cor 2:14 jn 6:44

    ,

    yes...he does....but for salvation to occur he must be "quickened" eph2:1-4

    Scripture speaks of the sinner being made willing in the day of God's power
    psalm 110....
    3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    God has already made the choice in eternity past having given the elect to the Son...jn 6;37 Hebrews 2:11-13

    ,

    There was an actual atonement made...not a potential one. the work of the cross goes worldwide to every tribe and tongue...but not every person is covered by the covenant death.

    God is in total control...behind the scenes...the Spirit of God doing his work in unseen fashion, like the wind is unseen but you see the effects of the wind,jn 3

    I

    Humanly speaking...man repents and believes...scripturally speaking it is this;

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    From start to finish it is all of God......100% or we would never become saved at all.....that is why Paul says there is no room for boasting.

    Agreed...he is conceived dead in Adam unwilling and unable to come , or accept anything unless and until God draws him all the way into saving faith.

    no where is this language used.....God makes us accepted......it is not us who accept anything..
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

    Unsaved man can be very religious and he might desire not to go to hell, but he will try and dictate his own terms rather than accept the biblical terms.

    ok

    .

    God has elected a multitude that no man can number to be saved.
    all men have the light of conscience and nature...but there is no special message given to all men everywhere......As Jesus was on the cross there were people around the world who never heard anything about Him.
    That is why missionaries...go into all the world

    :thumbs:
     
  3. SolaSaint

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    SW, you said all men will be given the opportunity at least once to be saved. Icon rightly replied elsewhere that our atonement is an actual one and not a potential one. I always remember John Owens writing on this. If Christ's atonement is just a potential one then it depends upon us to complete it. It also makes a mockery of Jesus' death and what it accomplishes. Have you ever considered that non-cals must believe that Jesus' death, the propitiation isn't 100% powerful or effective. Only when man makes a decision does it become powerful enough to do it's job. It would also mean that Christ died for everyone but it wasn't good enough because we know not everyone is saved. That means Christ isn't Omnipotent (All powerful) which means he isn't God. Food for thought. I was where you were at about 8 years ago but struggled with predestination so I read john Owen and other Reformers. I highly suggest you do the same. Not that the Reformers trump scripture but they point towards it. God bless.:wavey:
     
  4. The Archangel

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    Sapper Woody,

    I'm going to try to address what you wrote here and I'm hopefully what I have to say will be profitable to you (and others) even if you don't agree...

    I would agree that man is drawn to God and that he cannot just "decide" to be saved. Man indeed has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit, as you suggest.

    However, that last little piece, the decision to accept or reject Christ isn't outside of that drawing. Jonathan Edwards said, "We are free to choose, but we are always a slave to our greatest desire." Therein lies the problem--it is not what we do, it is who we are that is the problem. Christ said things like murder, etc. come from the heart. Genesis reports that the desire of man's heart is only evil continually. In the Prophets we're told that the heart is desperately wicked and then asks the rhetorical question, "Who can know it"--expecting the answer no one, not even us.

    So, in essence, a drawing that only brings you to the precipice isn't, ultimately, a drawing because it doesn't deal with the root issue--the heart.

    In Irresistible Grace, we say that God makes the unwilling willing by changing their heart. In other words, He gives us new desires and then we are then enslaved as bond-servants to that great desire--Christ (see the Edwards quote above).

    So, there is free choice, but it's the free choice exercised by a heart that has already been changed by the Holy Spirit (see John 3; Ezekiel 36).

    As Dr. Timothy Paul Jones has said in his new book, PROOF: Finding Freedom through the Intoxicating Joy of Irresistible Grace, "The spiritually dead don’t choose God's gift for the same reason prison escapees don’t voluntarily visit the police."​

    The question here is this: If all mankind's sins are atoned for, why does anyone go to hell?

    Now, one might counter: Unbelief is a sin. But, then the conundrum is why that sin is unatoned for when the claim is made that all sin is atoned for.

    At some point, if one rejects a limited atonement, one has to deal with why God is requiring of double payment of the sins of the non-believers. If Christ paid for their sins on the cross--and God's wrath was poured out on Christ for those sins--why does He pour out His wrath again on unbelievers in hell?

    I'd agree with this. The reason God sees the Christian as sinless is not because of Christ's death as that only pays for our sins. Instead, God sees us as righteous because of the life of perfection Christ lived in our stead. In other words, Christ is our substitute in life--living the perfect life we could not have lived--and our substitute in His death--bearing the wrath of God that we deserved to bear. We are, as the song says, dressed in His righteousness alone. It is not our righteousness, it is an alien righteousness--Christ's righteousness.


    My comments earlier should also apply to much of what is said here.

    However, you mention "I believe that opportunity will be given to every man at least once in their lifetime." What about those who never hear the Gospel? What about those who lived on the North American continent in AD500. No missionary brought the Gospel here. They didn't have an opportunity, much less a missionary. As Romans 10 asks, "How will they hear without a preacher?" The implied answer is, they won't. So, what about those to whom no preacher is sent?

    I hope my answers have been helpful.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  5. psalms109:31

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    If those who trust(believe) in Jesus isn't saved then God isn't powerful enough, but God no where tells us all men will be saved a desire and a will is two different things.

    Those who believe in His Son will be saved, shall be saved now that is something you can be sure of will happen, but a desire isn't a promise.

    "The word "wish" gives as much force to the original as it really requires, and the passage should run thus—"whose wish it is that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth." As it is my wish that it should be so, as it is your wish that it might be so, so it is God's wish that all men should be saved; for, assuredly, he is not less benevolent than we are. Then comes the question, "But if he wishes it to be so, why does he not make it so? " Beloved friend, have you never heard that a fool may ask a question which a wise man cannot answer, and, if that be so, I am sure a wise person, like yourself, can ask me a great many questions which, fool as I am, I am yet not foolish enough to try to answer. Your question is only one form of the great debate of all the ages,—"If God be infinitely good and powerful, why does not his power carry out to the full all his beneficence?" It is God's wish that the oppressed should go free, yet there are many oppressed who are not free. It is God's wish that the sick should not suffer. Do you doubt it? Is it not your own wish? And yet the Lord does not work a miracle to heal every sick person. It is God's wish that his creatures should be happy. Do you deny that? He does not interpose by any miraculous agency to make us all happy, and yet it would be wicked to suppose that he does not wish the happiness of all the creatures that he has made. He has an infinite benevolence which, nevertheless, is not in all points worked out by his infinite omnipotence; and if anybody asked me why it is not, I cannot tell. I have never set up to be an explainer of all difficulties, and I have no desire to do so."

    C.H. Spurgeon
     
  6. SolaSaint

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    Very good answers Archangel> Sapper I pray you read these words and ask for the HS to reveal truth. :thumbsup:
     
  7. psalms109:31

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    We are to trust in God over our own heart, because it is deceitful.

    It can even try to get us to doubt our salvation, but we are to remain in Him even if we have doubt even if we believe we are faithless because Jesus cannot disown Himself.


    The main reason for telling us about our heart being evil is not that you can't come, but not to trust in it, trust in His word, remain in Him no matter what.

    Even if you have doubt that you are the elect of God don't let men's wicked hearts turn you away from the truth, Jesus.

    We are to trust, believe, remain in Jesus above all, not in men.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, May 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2014
  8. Sapper Woody

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    Psalms109:31, respectively, what are you talking about? Did you post in the wrong thread or something? You're making zero sense.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Brother Sapper Woody, I want to THANK YOU first off for serving our country in the military. You are GREATLY appreciated by me for doing so. [​IMG]


    Now, in regards to Calvinism, I will address election. As I have read your posts, you correctly stated we do not come to God outside the drawing of the Spirit. Jesus said that no man can come unto Me except My Father which sent Me draws him(John 6:44). However, Jesus stated this is John 10, sayings such as these "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.(John 10:3,4)


    "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep(John 10:14,15).



    Then in the latter part of chapter 10, Jesus addresses those who were seeking to trap Him in His words, so that they could kill Him. He told them this; "Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one(John 10:24-30).


    I posted this is the other thread you started asking why is it a big deal, and I think it goes hand-in-hand with this thread here.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2113677&postcount=102
     
  10. convicted1

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    Ezekiel 34

    In Ezekiel 34, God says things such as this:

    "For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God. I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment."(Ezekiel 34:11-16)


    You can read here what God said He would do for His sheep. He saw they had no Shepherd and that they were scattered, being Shepherdless sheep.


    "Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.(Ezekiel 34:22-31)


    Election is an most intimate relationship betwixt man and their Creator. We were all sheep going astray(the elect, that is), having no Shepherd. Jesus came to redeem them, to bring back His sheep into the fold. Adam caused everyone of us to be born at enmity with God. Adam severed that relationship, being the first Adam. Christ came to repaur that severed cord, and in doing so, made a way for us, His sheep gone astray, to come back to Him.

    Let's take another angle to this approach. In John 15, Jesus stated this:




    "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.(John 15:1-14)



    Now, you will probably notice that first portion where He said:

    "Every branch in Me that beareth not forth fruit He taketh away, Jesus had previously had a pleothra of disciples depart from Him because of what He said in John 6 concerning eating His flesh and drinking His blood. They said, "This is an hard saying, who can hear it?" Jesus was seperating His shepp from the goats, because many left Him that very day and never returned. Jesus then turned to Peter and ask him this, "Will ye also go away?" To wit Peter answered, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."(John 6:68,69) Then in closing this post, Christ affirmed this election to Peter, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.(Matthew 16:17)



    Picture this for one second....and then I'll close, I promise. You have a field of corn. One day, a terrible wind storm came along and blew every stalk down flat to the ground. For whatever reason, you go through and to save time, you go through and pick certain stalks to pick up. The others, for whatever reason only benownst to you, you leave the others flat on the ground. This is a picture of election. We were all flat on the ground, and God, in eternity past, chose to pick us up via Christ. The others remain flat....
     
    #10 convicted1, May 30, 2014
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  11. Yeshua1

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    Think that salvation was from start to finish the work and plan of God, so why would God predestined and determine to the exact time of His death the Cross of Christ, and yet then have it only a potential salvation, God hoping and waiting to see if any sinner will allow God to ave them by the death of Jesus?

    God shares His glory with no one, so why would the Lord trust sinners to make the "right choice?", as he knows they are bound up in theur sin natures and cannot chose that?
     
  12. webdog

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    You have a good understanding of the biblical model of salvation. Don't let the question begging fallacies that you don't know "truth" cloud your understanding.
     
  13. Winman

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    Archangel has given the Calvinist view here. But is it what scripture teaches? Does scripture teach that we are enslaved by a sin nature and will always choose against God? I do not believe it does.

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Paul taught that we have the ability to yield ourselves, "whether" of sin unto death, "or" obedience unto righteousness.

    In verse 17 Paul thanks God that when these persons were servants or slaves of sin, they obeyed the gospel. Being "then" made free from sin, they became servants of righteousness.

    This shows they obeyed the gospel while they were yet sinners and slaves of sin. It was only AFTER believing the gospel they were made free of sin and "became" servants of righteousness.

    So, this refutes the Calvinist view that a sinner cannot repent and obey the gospel.

    We only receive the atonement or redemption "in him".

    1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Jesus provided redemption for every man, but we only have access to this redemption "in Christ". We must believe to receive the redemption paid by Jesus.

    I would disagree with this, I believe the scriptures teach unregenerate man can do good, but any righteousness he would do is made filthy and torn by sin he commits.

    Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    The scriptures show that a man can do righteousness(es), but that the moment he sins all his righteous works will not be mentioned, but "in his trespass", "in his sin", "in them" shall he die.

    This is actually how all law works. You could be an honest citizen your whole life, but one day rob a bank. Will a judge let you go because you have been good 99.94% of your life? NO. Even if this is your first and only crime, you must pay for it and go to jail. God's law works exactly the same, if you sin just once, you must die.

    The wages of sin is death. The moment you sin you are "sold under sin" (Rom 7:14) like a slave in the ancient market. You now belong to sin, he is your master, and there is only escape, and that is death.

    The moment you believe on Jesus you are baptized into his body. We died with him to sin on the cross, but we were also raised with him to life. Sin is no longer our master, he holds no power or authority over us, we are now under grace.

    Probably the greatest unanswered question in Christianity is what happens to people who never hear the gospel. I have never heard a truly convincing answer to this question.

    My only answer would be that God is just and judges people fairly. He holds people accountable for what they know. The more you know and understand of God and his word, the more accountable you are.

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    Now, I cannot say for certain what this scripture is saying, but those who do do not know God's word, yet did commit things worthy of stripes will be beaten with few stripes.

    What does that mean "few stripes"? I do not want to speculate, but it certainly shows they will receive less severe punishment, or limited punishment, but I am not certain.

    I tend to believe as you Sapper Woody, that everybody hears the gospel once in their life, but only God knows the answer to that. What we do know is that God will treat all persons fairly and justly.
     
    #13 Winman, May 30, 2014
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  14. Iconoclast

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    Sw........asked for the calvinist view....not vain speculation and philosophy to obscure the discussion.

    Start your own thread....TK. and Wd
     
  15. Winman

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    Then why post it in the Calvinist/Arminian DEBATE forum?

    He could PM all the known Calvinists and ask you to send him your views, and persons like me wouldn't even know about it.
     
  16. Rippon

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    You will not find that in the Scriptures. Many or most of humanity throughout the ages have never heard the Gospel.
    No, the Lord does not treat all persons fairly and justly with respect to their eternal destiny. Every single individual deserves everlasting torment --the Second Death. That's justice. But the elect do not receive justice --they receive mercy --praise the Lord!
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Winman......or he could probably just you for your............version....or aversion.
     
  18. webdog

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    I provided neither philosophy or vain speculation.
     
  19. convicted1

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