Questions for Dispensationalists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    Here are some questions:

    1. Was the Church spoken of by the OT prophets?

    2. What is the Great Parentheses?

    3. Are present Jewish believers part of the Church?

    4. Is the Church presently the establishment of the Davidic Kingdom?

    5. Is God's Redemption in Christ Jesus the plan of God from the beginning?

    6. Did Abraham understand the promise of land to him to be physical or heavenly?
     
  2. swaimj

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    1. No

    2. The church age

    3. Yes

    4. No

    5. Yes

    6. Physical
     
  3. webdog

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    I second that response...
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Plan A & Plan B

    The Greek word 'katabole' is translated foundation
    and with 'cosmos' is translated 'foundation of the world'.

    In the New Testament there are 10 occurances of
    'foundation of the world'. There are two conditions:

    pro (before)
    apo (since or from)

    Seven start with 'apo'
    Three start with 'pro'

    The differences are doctrinaly significant:
    the three starting with 'pro' has to do with
    God's love of Christ, God's selection of Christ,
    and Christ's selection of we Christ-ones.

    1 Pe 1:20 (KJV1611): before = pro
    who verily was foreordeined before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
    The Strong's says of the word translated 'foundation':

    G2602
    καταβολή
    katabolē
    kat-ab-ol-ay'
    From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding;
    figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.



    Rev 17:8 (KJV1769):
    The beast that thou sawest, was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomlesse pit, and goe into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, (whose names were not written in the booke of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Foundation of the World in KJV1769:

    Mt 13:35 (KJV1769): from = apo
    That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

    Matthew 25:34 (KJV1769): from = apo
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Luke 11:50 (KJV1769): from = apo
    That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

    John 17:24 (KJV1769): before = pro
    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:4 (KJV1769): before = pro
    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Hebrews 4:3 (KJV1769): from = apo
    For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

    Hebrews 9:26 (KJV1769): since = apo
    For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Revelation 13:8 (KJV1769): from = apo
    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    In general:

    apo (since, from) the foundation refers to Yisrael
    pro (before) the foundation refers to the largely Gentile Church
    of the Church Age (also: Times of the Gentiles, Age of
    the Gentiles, Age of Grace, etc).

    God's plan for Jesus saving the Gentiles was made
    before the world; God's plan for National Israel
    was made after the world was made.
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Bro. Ed, I have the hardest time trying to understand your posts, but this I did get and must disagree.

    God's plans were made before anything was created.
     
  6. webdog

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    I'll disagree with you both :)
    God's plans are not confined to time, but are manifested within time.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    Does God have a Delorian?
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Well....I disagree with you! :laugh:

    Planning and manifesting are two different things. I can plan to mow the grass, but my plan isn't manifested (or revealed) until I actually do it.
     
  9. webdog

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    I'll disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement. :D You are speaking in finite terms bound by time. We plan things...then reveal them. There is a definite order in that. Order requires time, and being omnitemporal...God is not bound by that. If God does anything "before" something...that is an order within time.
     
  10. Amy.G

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    Well, it's about time.

    Ok. I have no idea what you just said.
     
  11. webdog

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    Me neither :laugh:

    Just kidding. Think of time as a ruler. It's only a measurement. "Before" and "after" are points on the ruler. God is not bound to the "ruler". Better? :D
     
  12. Amy.G

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    Better. I think. :laugh:


    Bottom line. God does what He wants. And I'm glad. :)
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sister Amy.G: God wants us to know what His plan is:

    Revelation 22:6 (TNIV = Today's New International Version /Zondervan, 2006/ ):
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."


    [/FONT]
     
  14. Humblesmith

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    1. No.
    2. I presume the church is what this is speaking of, although I have not heard the term used. I presume this is speaking of Israel being cut off and re-grafted in, as the NT explains.
    3. Yes; there is one salvation for all people for all time: by grace through faith. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
    4. No. But the NT does speak of the kingdom in both a present, spiritual sense and a future physical sense. The future physical is the proper Davidic kingdom. Not much of a kingdom without a king, and the King is in Heaven right now.
    5. Yes, most definitely.
    6. Physical.

    And yes, I'm a dispensationalist.
     
  15. swaimj

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    Is there going to be a discussion about these six questions? I keep waiting. If not, I can only assume that the answers Humblesmith and I have given are irrefutable. :thumbs:
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    Did Jesus come to establish the Church?
    Did Jesus come to make a New Covenant?

    Was He successful if you answered yes?
     
  17. swaimj

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    Since you are asking more questions I have to assume you agree with the previous answers of Humblesmith and I and find those answers irrefutable. I didn't think everyone on the BB was a dispensationalist and I'm surprised to find those who are not to be speechless.

    Oh, you have more questions. Sure, I'm on a roll!

    Now taking my tongue out of my cheek

    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes
     
  18. JDale

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    EXCELLENT POST WebDog! Many believers (even "Theologians") can't quite wrap their minds around the idea that God is not confined by "time."
     
  19. JDale

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    1. Yes -- though when they did, they didn't always know it -- that's why Paul called it a mystery!

    2. It's an unfortunate term applied to the Church Age that is largely not in use among normative Dispensationalists today.

    3. Yes

    4. No

    5. Yes

    6. Physical. What exactly is "heavenly" land -- and how could Abraham have conceived of it?

    And YES, I, too, am a Dispensationalist.

    JDale
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    1. You say Jesus did come to establish the Church. Was the mission of the Messiah not mentioned by the Prophets? Why does Paul quote the OT so much if the "church age" is no where found in their writings.

    2. You say Jesus did come to make a New Covenant and you say he succeded in doing so. Are you aware that Dispie Theologians say the New Covenant has not yet been made? Since you disagree with Ryrie and others then you do believe the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:



    Is the New Covenant Age different from the Church Age?
     

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