1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Questions for KJVOs

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Mar 6, 2004.

Top Posters
Page 4 of 14
  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, then, if you can prove it, then do so. Prove that those MV's somehow kept people from keeping God's Word without using circular reasoning. Prove that WWII is DIRECTLY related to modern versions. Prove that Hitler would not have tried to attack and conquer all of Europe if it had not been for those MV's.

    Do you believe that somehow the churches in Revelation refers to different church ages? Where is your Scriptural proof, and who else believes in such a thing? Prove that "hand over" in Revelation refers to the KJV.

    Oh, and prove that a nation that would truly live by the NASB would be much, much worse than one that lived by the KJV.

    Ready?
     
    #61 ScottEmerson, Mar 15, 2004
  2. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Do you believe that somehow the churches in Revelation refers to different church ages? Where is your Scriptural proof, and who else believes in such a thing? Prove that "hand over" in Revelation refers to the KJV."

    This was always taught to me in IFBs. It has been drilled into my head so much so that it is hard for me to realize they were actual churches. Evertime I read these passages, i automatically revert back to what I was taught when I was growing up.

    There is a word that means to see something spiritual in a scripture that wasn't intended to be there. i can't think of it now, but I think it is the opposite of "exegesis".

    Anyway, That is what I believe they are doing.

    .
     
    #62 tinytim, Mar 15, 2004
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    Originally posted by charlie parker:



    Well, those are quite the statements you have made. I found that what I studied in seminary helped me a lot to witness more and to understand God’s compassion for the world.

    Your friends didn’t know much before going into that college other wise they would have not been so easily swayed. Did your church not do its job? I saw the same thing happen in seminary. I learned to love God more and I saw others who were in seminary for a “job.” Before I went several told me to not let the seminary ruin me. The fact was that I saw professors who had dealt with the tough issues. They were and are still my examples. I had heard more trash form the pulpit and got straightened out finally in seminary. The fact that I heard so much religious nonsense and the more I read the Bible and asked questions the more troubled I became.

    You have to understand that I reached a point where I stopped reading the Bible and started attending church less frequently. The one thing that kept me going was that I knew God existed. But I was still troubled by al the questions I had and pastors and laypeople would give me and answer and then I would ask a follow up questions and then they would admit they really didn’t know that what they told me was what they had been told. That all changed when I went to seminary. Finally I got answers to my questions that changed my life. Because I that I am able to much better help others.

    You also need to realize that God has never used ignorance. I trust that you do read the Bible. In doing so you read some very well educated people. For anyone to have written in the OT or most any other time they would have had to be a part of the elite. It is most likely that two to five percent of the population could even read. It was usually much closer to two percent. Paul was very well educated. Just think about where Moses grew up.

    Because of my education and knowledge I have been able to turn others around and point them in the right direction. There was a day when the Sunday Schools gave grades each quarter. Now so many require little more than attendance. In the Bible studies I teach I give weekly homework. They are accountable to get it done and memorize one verse of the Bible each week.
     
    #63 gb93433, Mar 15, 2004
  4. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0



    Well, those are quite the statements you have made. I found that what I studied in seminary helped me a lot to witness more and to understand God’s compassion for the world.

    Your friends didn’t know much before going into that college other wise they would have not been so easily swayed. Did your church not do its job? I saw the same thing happen in seminary. I learned to love God more and I saw others who were in seminary for a “job.” Before I went several told me to not let the seminary ruin me. The fact was that I saw professors who had dealt with the tough issues. They were and are still my examples. I had heard more trash form the pulpit and got straightened out finally in seminary. The fact that I heard so much religious nonsense and the more I read the Bible and asked questions the more troubled I became.

    You have to understand that I reached a point where I stopped reading the Bible and started attending church less frequently. The one thing that kept me going was that I knew God existed. But I was still troubled by al the questions I had and pastors and laypeople would give me and answer and then I would ask a follow up questions and then they would admit they really didn’t know that what they told me was what they had been told. That all changed when I went to seminary. Finally I got answers to my questions that changed my life. Because I that I am able to much better help others.

    You also need to realize that God has never used ignorance. I trust that you do read the Bible. In doing so you read some very well educated people. For anyone to have written in the OT or most any other time they would have had to be a part of the elite. It is most likely that two to five percent of the population could even read. It was usually much closer to two percent. Paul was very well educated. Just think about where Moses grew up.

    Because of my education and knowledge I have been able to turn others around and point them in the right direction. There was a day when the Sunday Schools gave grades each quarter. Now so many require little more than attendance. In the Bible studies I teach I give weekly homework. They are accountable to get it done and memorize one verse of the Bible each week.     </font>[/QUOTE]A very interesting response. I too would like to respond to the statements by Charlie Parker. Charlie, I do have a higher college degree a Master In Business Administration. It was at a Methodist university and the course was strictly secular, I took it through the private university because it was provided by night classes so I could obtain it while I worked, although it was extremely expensive. My point; however, is that I have no higher degree in Religion of any sort, nor did I take ANY courses that related to religion with the exception of what little is taught in history and humanities classes (which as you are well aware is not religious or Christian related). I was taught evolution in biology, but I am a staunch 7 day creationist.
    I do have 23 college credit hours of Old Testament History which taught the background of what was occuring during the Old Testament (who the Kings were, where they came from, who was in control of what country at what time, etc.) Nothing was taught concerning the Bible's origin or translations.

    My whole point here is that I do NOT have an education in Biblical origin except what I learned on my own. Now, I am a voracious reader. I read constantly and have read almost every version of the Bible that I could get my hands on, except the 1611 which is too difficult due primarily to the spelling. I have read parts; however. I am a collector of old Bibles including a German 1732 Bible, a King James 1611 (printed in 1612) among Bibles up through the civil war and later. I also have as many copies of ancient manuscripts as I can find, although these are not originals and some are on computer.
    I do read some Greek, with the help of some dictionaries and phrase "meaning" books. I can translate from Greek at a very, very slow pace with my study aids. I am now attempting to learn Biblical Hebrew, which I consider much, much harder.

    I simply wanted to give you my background to show you that I have not been tainted by liberal college professors such as those you claim and no doubt some exist. But, my conclusions do indicate that the KJV is a translation in English, it may have been translated in directly from Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic; but I will say that it is also a compilation of Bibles before it such as the Geneva Bible, the Bishop's Bible and even the Vulgate. I love the latest revision of the KJV, the one being sold today, but it is a translation and although it is God's Holy Word, so are other main-stream accepted translations such as the NIV, NASB, ESV and others. Let me ask you a question.
    If you were to translate a Bible today into a language which has not yet been translated to, how would you go about it. This happens even today as we reach to a lot of countries that have small populations and unreached people groups.
    Would you translate it from the KJV or would you attempt to translate it from some Greek/Hebrew documents, and if you did where would you get those?
    KJVO people talk down about textual criticism used in the translation of MV's. This is NO different than when the translators of the King James Version studied 13 different pieces of conflicting manuscripts of the Revelation Of Jesus Christ and came away deciding which different parts of the different manuscripts they chose--no doubt influenced by certain biases of the Anglican faith from which they came.
    Calling a Bible corrupt or some other name literally scares me. I know one lady who posts that we should be scared of God because we do not accept the KJV as the only translation that is God's Word. Well, I challenge that in the other direction because I think it is far more dangerous to call something as precious as God's Word as being corrupt. If the Bible teaches the truth about Jesus Christ and the gospels as we believe today and is translated properly, even from older documents, then the Bible is His Word. By calling it corrupt, you are literally calling God's Holy Word corrupt.

    I will give you one simple example that you can find. Many people say that the NIV dumbs down the Bible and plays down the Godship of Jesus Christ. I believe in Acts 3 (I cannot remember the verse) You will find that when Peter and John healed the lame man and entered the temple, they were talking about Jesus. The King James Version says he is the "Prince of Life". Okay, that is a good translation, but it was and had much more power back in 1611 when it was first penned due to the difference in the language. To me it sounds like he is a "prince" which is lower than a "king" and it says nothing about what he did with life except that he is the "prince" of it.

    Now take a look at the NIV which says (and is correctly translated, just like the 1611 in its day) the "author" of life. To me, this tells me that Jesus "made" life, that he wrote the genetic code and all of the information required for living beings.

    In today's language, it is my opinion that the NIV holds a much stronger portrait of the actual Greek words and will be understood in a "stronger" fashion that the KJV. NOT because the KJV was not a good translation, but because the English language HAS changed whether we like it or not. And English WILL continue to change, if God does not come back first, until we would not even be able to understand it. At that point in time, the KJV will be an unacceptable translation because it will simply be outside of the realm of understanding by English speaking people.

    You can say what you want to, but the actual KJV you carry today is only a few hundred years old. This means that other English translations predating it had to be God's Word. At the risk of sounding sooooo redundant, it is like the joke that if the KJV was good enough for Paul, it is good enough for me.

    Here I am, self educated with no liberal biased professors and my conclusion is that the KJV is an excellent translation, but difficult to read, especially by younger generations and will become more so as time passes. We are used to it because we grew up with it, but the unchurched have a lot of difficulty even understanding many of the words. Therefore, new translations are and will be more important as time goes by. You may feel assured your KJV IS the Word of God, but I can also assure you that my ESV is also the Word of God. ;)
     
    #64 Phillip, Mar 15, 2004
  5. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    paidagogos wrote&gt;&gt;&gt;"Charlie, I can accept that the KJV is the Word of God but I can't see how it can correct something that doesn't exist. Please elaborate.&lt;&lt;&lt;

    As I pointed out in earlier posts, I have a "copy" of The bible, in english, which mv'ers want to correct with THE gk text, which they dont have and whose education and opinions are their final authority, When an mv'er attempts to correct Gods word, I see Don Knotts or Pee Wee Hermon standing in line at the Olympic weight lifting event, Its a losing battle but its a forum.
    Charlie
     
    #65 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  6. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    paidagogos wrote&gt;&gt;&gt;"Charlie, I can accept that the KJV is the Word of God but I can't see how it can correct something that doesn't exist. Please elaborate.&lt;&lt;&lt;

    As I pointed out in earlier posts, I have a "copy" of The bible, in english, which mv'ers want to correct with THE gk text, which they dont have and whose education and opinions are their final authority, When an mv'er attempts to correct Gods word, I see Don Knotts or Pee Wee Hermon standing in line at the Olympic weight lifting event, Its a losing battle but its a forum.
    Charlie
     
    #66 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  7. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Phillip wrote "You may feel assured your KJV IS the Word of God, but I can also assure you that my ESV is also the Word of God."

    So when they conflict, where is your final authority? Where there is no Final authority there is no harmony, there is anarchy.
    Charlie
     
    #67 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  8. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr Bob Griffin wrote" Jesus Christ is God. You cannot divorce His humanity from his deity. To do so is called the "Aryan Heresy" and is false. The "man" Christ Jesus is the "God" Christ Jesus."
    _______________________________________________


    Matthew 26:42  He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
    ________________________________________________

    Looks like two "wills" in the context, Jesus the man had two natures, the Adamic from his mother, altho sinless, and the divine from His Father, If He were not man of very man, His death would not have redeemed anyone.
    Charlie
     
    #68 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  9. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    The final authority comes in the original manuscripts, Charlie. The Greek text DOES correct modern versions, as well as the KJV - the Greek gets primacy over ANY translation.
     
    #69 ScottEmerson, Mar 15, 2004
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie Parker:As I pointed out in earlier posts, I have a "copy" of The bible, in english, which mv'ers want to correct with THE gk text, which they dont have and whose education and opinions are their final authority, When an mv'er attempts to correct Gods word, I see Don Knotts or Pee Wee Hermon standing in line at the Olympic weight lifting event, Its a losing battle but its a forum.

    What makes you think the AV translators used "THE" Greek? And by WHOSE "final authority" do you post KJVO propaganda?
     
    #70 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Tiny Tim-I believe the word you're seeking is "eisegesis".
     
    #71 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie Parker:So when they conflict, where is your final authority? Where there is no Final authority there is no harmony, there is anarchy.

    Same place it is when the KJV appears to have conflict within itself. In the KJV, Mark has both thieves crucified with Jesus reviling Him while Luke has one thief repenting. Each Gospel has a different number of women at Jesus' tomb early Sunday morn. 2 Kings 24:8 has Jehoiachin beginning his reign at age eighteen while 2 Chron.36:9 has him beginning his reign at age eight.
     
    #72 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  13. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    gb wrote"You also need to realize that God has never used ignorance. I trust that you do read the Bible. In doing so you read some very well educated people. For anyone to have written in the OT or most any other time they would have had to be a part of the elite. It is most likely that two to five percent of the population could even read. It was usually much closer to two percent. Paul was very well educated. Just think about where Moses grew up.
    ______________________________________________

    Well gb, There is nothing like a bible to settle a bible question, Paul had to unlearn his early learning to serve God, and Gods choice of servants has always been thus "Acts 4:13  Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." You should really check out the writers in the OT before making such a statement, What did Moses learn in pagan Egypt that was spiritual? Shepherds, herdsmen, woodsmen, slaves, are these the "elete" that you refer to? Try this one," Corinthians 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"
    Have a great day
    Charlie
     
    #73 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  14. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie, Just curious- Do you attend HVBC in Villa Rica?
     
    #74 Scott J, Mar 15, 2004
  15. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    robycop wrote "Same place it is when the KJV appears to have conflict within itself.-----."
    _________________________________________________
    Now you worded the statement just right and with integrety, when the AV "appears" to have conflit with itself, careful study with a believing and submissive heart will supply the answers to all questions, Typing is "manual labor" to me brother, and the answer to your stated problems with the holy text would require an hour of hard labor for me, also, when one goes to Gods word looking for problems God will sear his conscience with a hot iron and supply all the rope one needs to hang himself. One of Gods faithful servants, holding many degrees, has a book, "Problem Texts" that has documented answers to all the "apparent" conflicting texts in both testaments, It is availible at Bible Baptist Bookstore, Pensacola Fl. online, before you "thank me" let me say "you're welcome"
    Charlie
     
    #75 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  16. charlie parker

    charlie parker New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fellow Members,
    Beating a dead horse serves no purpose, I have said what I came here to say with the sure knowledge that I will face every word Ive typed at the Judgment Seat of Christ, my concience is clear on this matter, if I have personlly offended a brother I humbly apologize, If anyone was offended by Gods word or His words, tough apples.
    Because of Calvery
    Charlie Parker
     
    #76 charlie parker, Mar 15, 2004
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie Parker:"Now you worded the statement just right and with integrety, when the AV "appears" to have conflit with itself, careful study with a believing and submissive heart will supply the answers to all questions,...."

    I presented some of the verses that appear to be at odds with each other in the KJV for the purpose of reminding the KJVOs that the principles applied to these verses to explain the apparent contradictions MUST BE APPLIED to the differing mss used to make English Bibles, lest they use a double standard. The main fact among these is that the different books of the Bible were written by different people in different times & places. This is also true of the mss we have available today. often, the KJVO refuses to recognize this fact when condemning another version because "it's left out something found in the kayJayVee".
     
    #77 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie Parker: One of Gods faithful servants, holding many degrees, has a book, "Problem Texts" that has documented answers to all the "apparent" conflicting texts in both testaments, It is availible at Bible Baptist Bookstore, Pensacola Fl. online, before you "thank me" let me say "you're welcome"...

    Sorry, Sir, your "faithful servant" here is Dr. Peter Ruckman, whom I believe is nothing more than a charlatan. I learned about "problem texts" from a RELIABLE source, plus plain ole common sense. I wouldn't trust the clock on Ruckman's office wall to be right.

    Here's some of the lowdown on Ruckman:
    http://www.kjvonly.org/gary/ruckman_incred.htm

    You might want to cross-reference the facts presented there. If you do, I'm sure you'll drop his "stuff" like a hot potato.
     
    #78 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Charlie Parker:Fellow Members,
    Beating a dead horse serves no purpose, I have said what I came here to say with the sure knowledge that I will face every word Ive typed at the Judgment Seat of Christ, my concience is clear on this matter, if I have personlly offended a brother I humbly apologize, If anyone was offended by Gods word or His words, tough apples.

    I, too, know I'll answer for every word I've typed if they were SINFUL. But my conscience is clear because of the fact that I've been fighting FALSE DOCTRINES, as every Baptist should do.

    Why should your words offend anyone who has at least normal intelligence? As for the KJVO stuff, been there, seen it, done that. It's just as false now as it ever was.

    Offended by God's word? That would be a KJVO thing, when someone quotes from another BV.

    I detect an air about your post that smells as if you're planning to leave this forum. I, for one, sincerely hope you stay long enough to learn that KJVO is a false, men-made myth, or actually, simply stay a LOT longer. The total lack of the KJVO myth's Scriptural support should speak volumes about its lack of veracity.
     
    #79 robycop3, Mar 15, 2004
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True, but the horse doesn't mind.

    HankD
     
    #80 HankD, Mar 15, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 4 of 14
Loading...