Questions for those who believe that man's will is involved in salvation.

It is also implied that if God is sovereign according to calvinism, and He chooses us for salvation, no act of man is required including faith. You can't have both. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is a gift from God, so ultimatly God is sovereign. Only after God grants faith can man then exercise it. </font>[/QUOTE]You need this to be true to support your doctrine. So none of the elect sit in chairs without worrying that gravity will keep them down while the chair can support them? They don't go through green lights because they have faith those with the red light will stop?

The Bible says nothing of faith and a separate "given, saving faith". This is a man doctrine. Ephesians 2 mentions the "gift" as God's grace which is Christ's death, not the faith in Christ's death. This is the most blatant fallacy in this doctrine.

 

Left to himself the answer would be no.
However man is not left to himself.

 

It is also implied that if God is sovereign according to calvinism, and He chooses us for salvation, no act of man is required including faith. You can't have both. </font>[/QUOTE]Faith is a gift from God, so ultimatly God is sovereign. Only after God grants faith can man then exercise it. </font>[/QUOTE]You need this to be true to support your doctrine. So none of the elect sit in chairs without worrying that gravity will keep them down while the chair can support them? They don't go through green lights because they have faith those with the red light will stop?

The Bible says nothing of faith and a separate "given, saving faith". This is a man doctrine. Ephesians 2 mentions the "gift" as God's grace which is Christ's death, not the faith in Christ's death. This is the most blatant fallacy in this doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]So you say everyone has faith already? </font>[/QUOTE]How does one get faith?

 

Yes, all men are created equal with the ability to have faith, and do exercise that ability daily. Those not saved have faith they don't need a saviour. Some have faith their church is the way to Heaven. The fact remains Christ draws all men, all men must have the ability to have faith in Him. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word, not a gift given to some and witheld from others.

 

Even if faith WERE a gift from God, man would still have to use it which would negate sovereign choice. It's like God saying "to get to heaven you have to cut down that tree, here's the saw, go cut it down". This would not be totally from God as man's role is defined as it is in the Bible.

 

Left to himself the answer would be no.
However man is not left to himself. </font>[/QUOTE]Ok then, you must admidt then that God is sovereign in a mans salvation, and that it was not a choice of the mans will. You can't have it both ways.

Either man choose out of his own will, or God sovereignly choose the man.

Man's not left to himself eh?

Read Rm. 1 God gave man over to his sin and he is now in a totaly depraved state. Yes man has a will, but that will is clearly not free but in bondage to his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]Strawman after Strawman.. Why do you try to tell people what they beleive?
God has given light to mankind. Mankind is not left to himself.
We have the light of general revelation
The light of conscience
The light of Israel
The light of the Holy spirit
The Light of his word

 

But God says:

"...and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith." 2Thes. 3:2 </font>[/QUOTE]This says not all "have faith", not all were not given or permitted from having faith. These were unrighteous, wicked men Paul was talking about. If all had faith, that would be universalism.

If I am in a room where only one person had a red shirt on, and I said "not everyone has a red shirt", does this mean everyone wasn't given a red shirt, or that literally not everyone has a red shirt?

 

Sound like you are putting words in his mouth. I understand what he is saying. It just goes against your doctrine.
All me dont have faith. That does not mean they are not premitted to have faith. It does not mean they cant obtain faith. Not that hard to understand

 

Rahab responded to the light that God gave via Israel and was saved

 

Sound like you are putting words in his mouth. I understand what he is saying. It just goes against your doctrine.
All me dont have faith. That does not mean they are not premitted to have faith. It does not mean they cant obtain faith. Not that hard to understand </font>[/QUOTE]Its not my doctrine is the Bible.

Putting words in his mouth? Like when you claim I said that man is not permitted to have faith? I never said that. I said that not everyone has faith. Thats differnt.</font>[/QUOTE]I never said that you belived that.

Faith comes by hearing. It comes to any man that hears. This does not mean that he will exercise it however

No, you fail to see the bigger picture.
Have you always had faith? No!
At one time you were one of the ones that did not have faith. There are many today who do not have faith. This does not mean that the will not obtain faith.

 

Everyone has faith in something, someone. Those that have faith in God are saved. Those that don't, are not saved. Very simple if you quit making it so difficult.

 

Not a biblical principle, but man made.

All men are born with the ability to comprehend and reason which is the basis for faith. Faith comes by hearing (understanding).

Man only chooses to come to God after hearing (understanding). This happens by the convicting of the Holy Spirit. You make this either / or. God sovereignly saves man by sending His Son to the cross when we do not deserve it. God then caommands man to have faith in His Son. It's both.

 

webdog, philg,

Lets try this again. Let us all focus.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

( and I will raise him)

For you have given Him authority over everyone in all the earth. He gives eternal life to each one you have given Him.

He gives eternal life to the whole world or those that by free-will come to Him?

No....(He gives eternal life to each one that has been given to Him!)

Jesus said;

My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

Here is more talk on those given ones again. Who are they? Who do they belong to?

Those were and are the words of Jesus....."My prayer is NOT for the world but for those" (given ones.)

Maybe you would reconsider.

Regards, KJB