Questions to the full Preterist

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro Tony, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    I have a few of questions for those who are full preterist. To those who are partial or not preterist at all, please feel free to respond.

    1. Where is Satan today?

    2. Is Jesus coming again?

    3. Are we living in the new heaven and new earth?

    4. If we are living in the new heaven and new earth will this earth last forever?

    5. Do you believe things are getting better? If we live in the new heaven and earth what about the sin all around us?

    Thanks for your responses. I would really like to hear your views. I am not a preterist in any form, but am interested in how you deal with these questions.

    Bro Tony
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    Let me say I don't speak for all full-preterist, I speak just for my own beliefs. However,I think most full-prets would agree with most of what I say.


    Not sure.

    Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    No. He fulfilled His promise just when He said He would.

    I would agree with the futurist view that Jesus only taught one future coming. I believe the comings found in the NT such as Matt 26:64, Matt 16:27-28, James 5:8, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7, Acts 1:11 all refer to the same event.
    The only possible exception I see is Acts 1:11 but even that uses the same cloud images as the others.

    Yes, but you don’t have to be a full-preterist to believe this:

    C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

    John Brown (1853)
    " 'Heaven and earth passing, ' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)


    Not sure. I would tend to believe yes.

    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    Ecc 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.


    Psa 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

    Psa 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

    Yes, I believe things are getting better. Depending of course on what you mean by better. Is there any other time period you would rather live in than today? Middle Ages? 1st century? 1950’s, unless you are of color?

    How one can say things are getting worse, as we sit in our air conditioned homes freely discussing scripture with people 1000’s of miles away on this thing called a computer, while at the same time reviewing our 401k that will allow us to retire at age 60, is a little confusing.

    Does scripture say there will be no more sin in the New Heavens and New Earth?
    Who are these people outside the New Jerusalem:

    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    They are invited to enter into the city:

    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    The city(New Jerusalem) is the Church:

    Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem , descending out of heaven from God,


    The New Jerusalem(Church)is found in the New Heavens and New Earth(New Covenant).
     
  3. Bro Tony

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    Thank you for your responses Grasshopper. I would appreciate more from any others.

    Bro Tony
     
  4. Phillip

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    It would be interesting to see how the Sun is recharged when it reaches such a low Hydrogen level that it goes NOVA and then collapses after it attempts to eat up most of the planets.

    I know God can do anything, but this preterist view is starting to spread among some churches and I know of at least one fairly large church that split over this issue.
     
  5. Bro Tony

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    You are right Phillip, that is why I asked the questions. I wanted to know what the views of the full preterist are. I know they feel they are being more consistant than the futurist. I believe they have some real problems particularly in the the area of the questions I asked. I know that myself and the full preterist do not see eye to eye. I even had one tell me I believed in a different Jesus, because I held a futurist view. I hope this is just one extreme individual, but I fear it is spreading and a whole group in our area seem to be meeting and stating these same views concerning another Jesus.

    Bro Tony
     
  6. LadyEagle

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  7. Humblesmith

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    "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully, just as I have been fully known."

    Wow, golly, I didn't know we were face to face with God today. I must have missed that part.

    And I didn't know that I knew everything, just as well as God knows me.

    Oh, wait a minute........
     
  8. HankD

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    Brother Tony,

    I would like to add an important question?

    One of the weakest link in the chain of the teachings of radical preterism is the view that says that there will not be any future resurrection of the human body but that the resurrection is already past.

    My question to preterists here on the BB is:

    Will there be a future resurrection of the dead?

    HankD
     
  9. HankD

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    The Parousia, James Stuart Russell.

    HankD
     
  10. Brother Ian

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    1. Roaming the earth.
    2. Absolutely.
    3. No.
    4. We're not and this earth will cease.
    5. Things are getting worse.
     
  11. Tim

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    I am not a full-preterist. I believe that some prophecies remain unfulfilled, including the final return of Christ, the bodily resurrection of all men , and final judgment.

    But that said, I was compelled to believe a partial preterist position by the weight of scriptural evidence.I believe that in first century Israel these events happened in part, i.e. saints were resurrected in association with the crucifixion (Mat 27:52,53)and Christ did return in the clouds specifically to judge His enemies in the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction(Rev. 1:1,7), but I believe these foreshadowed greater events that will ultimately take place on a global scale. Such a pattern of "in Israel first, in the whole world later" seems to run all through the NT. Specifically mentioned in Romans 2:9-11 "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."

    I realize that probably everyone here will disagree with my timetable of prophecy--but when you're in the middle you must be prepared to take fire from both sides.

    Anyway, in response to Bro Tony's questions

    1. Satan is bound today(Rev. 20:2,3). This does NOT mean he has no power, but rather that He is a defeated enemy (Heb. 2:14, Rom. 16:20), unable to "deceive the nations" now as he did before Christ's work. Before the kneejerk reaction to my statement, consider an overview of history. Before Christ, all the nations were in darkness, Satan did control them (Mat. 4:8,9). But Jesus refused Satan's granting Him the kingdoms of this world--instead, Christ earned them (Mat 28:18, Eph. 1:21, Col. 2:10), and has given His people power over Satan. The devil is a "roaring lion", because he is wounded--that is what the old lions do who cannot hunt like the younger ones do. He's still dangerous, but his power is limited. He no longer controls the nations of this world--Christianity is spreading through them.

    2. Yes, Jesus is coming again.

    3 & 4. In a sense, yes, this is the new heavens and the new earth. Christ is the firstfruits of His new creation. His people's spirits are made alive in the Spirit, yet we still await the resurrection of the body. All creation awaits this same redemption yet to come (Rom. 8:22-23). The fiery judgement (fulfilled in type at Jerusalem) will ultimately be fulfilled in the renewal of the earth (2 Pet. 3). The fire is to purge the earth, not to bring it to an end (Ps. 104:5)

    5. Things are not consistently getting worse. Societies rise and decline today as they have throughout history. Natural disasters are no greater today than before (we just know about all of them 24/7). 2 Tim 3:12-14 does NOT say the world will get worse and worse, but rather Paul admonished Timothy specifically in his time to stand up against false teachers that would get worse and worse.
     
  12. Bro Tony

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    Thanks again for all the responses shared, as many know my views on my questions is the same as Brother Ian and Hanks question was a good addition. Please continue to post and maybe deal with the different views.

    Maranatha!!!!
    Bro Tony
     
  13. Jo$h

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    1. Where is Satan today?

    2. Is Jesus coming again?

    3. Are we living in the new heaven and new earth?

    4. If we are living in the new heaven and new earth will this earth last forever?

    5. Do you believe things are getting better? If we live in the new heaven and earth what about the sin all around us?


    1)Romans 16:20
    Rev 20:10

    2)No He is not "coming on clouds" a 3rd time

    Luke 21:20-22 (NKJV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled.

    Jesus said that in the destruction of Jerusalem, "all things written would be fulfilled" not some things would be fullfilled. All prophecy was fulfilled in AD. 70. There is no future coming or any other prophecy yet to be fulfilled.

    3)In ancient eastern cultures the phrase "heaven and earth" was used as a covenant between a god and man, the jews borrowed this phrase in conjunction with the OT law.

    This statement from (Dave Curtis)
    Hebrews 1:10-12 (NKJV) And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

    These verses are a word for word quotation from Psalm 102. If all we had was the prophecy of David in Psalms 102, we might think that this is referring to the physical earth. But, the New Testament gives us insight and illumination to the Old Testament.

    How is the world or the heavens and earth of old going to perish? David said, in Psalm 102:26, "They shall grow old like a garment," and then they would be "changed." Is it just a coincidence that the Bible speaks of the passing away of the old covenant using the same language?

    Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV) In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    The same Greek word palaioo which means: "to make worn out, or declare obsolete" is used in Hebrews 1:11 of the heavens and earth and 8:13 of the Old Covenant. The writer of Hebrews teaches us that the "Old Covenant" and the "Heavens and earth" are synonymous.

    Matthew 5:18 (NKJV) "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

    4)ask me again in 5 billion years

    5) http://www.preteristcosmos.com/questionsandanswers.html

    This is good website that will answer most of your questions regarding preterism. Look for question 13 and an answer to sin in the new covenant, sin by the way was only purged out of God's Kingdom not in the world.

    [ November 21, 2005, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]
     
  14. JackRUS

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    Josh.
    What did Jesus mean when He asked us to pray...

    "Thy kingdom come, thy will will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"?

    As for your 5 bilion year answer...

    What did Paul mean when he said this?:

    "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    For He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
    because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." Rom. 9:27-28
     
  15. Jo$h

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    "Your kingdom come." We could translate this: "Let Your kingdom come, and let it come now."

    Matthew 3:2 (NKJV) and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

    This from Dave Curtis
    "Jesus said the same thing:

    Matthew 4:17 (NKJV) From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

    What does "at hand" mean? The Greek word for "at hand" is eggizo. It is the perfect tense here, which literally means: "has come near." This phrase "at hand" introduces a state of affairs which is already beginning.

    In Matthew chapter 10, Jesus called his twelve disciples together and commissioned them to go throughout Israel preaching the message that "the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mt. 10:7). The content of their message was identical to the message of Jesus and John before him. Now notice what Jesus says in:

    Matthew 12:28 (NKJV) "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    If there is any doubt that the kingdom of God has arrived in an inaugural sense with the first advent of Christ, Jesus swept it aside by proclaiming that the kingdom of God "has come upon you". The words "has come upon" are the Greek word ephthasen, which suggests an arrival which catches unaware. The only logical conclusion was that the kingdom of God had come in the first century.

    As we look at other scripture we see that the kingdom was set up, or inaugurated, in the time of Christ, but it was not yet consummated:

    Hebrews 12:28 (NKJV) Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

    The word "receiving" is from the Greek word paralambano, and it is in the present tense showing progression. The kingdom was being brought into its fullness during the first century by progression". The Kingdom was of course fullfilled in AD 70.

    "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation."--Luke 17:20

    As for Romans 9:27,28

    Isaiah 10:22-23 (NKJV) For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness. 23 For the Lord GOD of hosts Will make a determined end In the midst of all the land.

    Isaiah predicts that due to the Assyrian invasion, Israel will be greatly reduced in number, only a remnant would return. The word "remnant" means, that which is left. A carpet remnant is a small piece of the whole.

    This Scripture demonstrates that God's promises do not pertain to the mass of Israel but are fulfilled in the remnant.

    Romans 9:28 (NKJV) For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."

    Romans 9:28 is a quotation from Isaiah 10:23. God is going to judge Israel thoroughly and quickly and only a remnant will be left. This is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman armies.

    Why in Isaiah is God's judgment not the whole earth but when Paul's quotes Isaiah all of a sudden it is the whole earth, when both greek and hebrew words can be translated land, territory, disctrict etc, etc, etc?
     
  16. JackRUS

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    Josh.
    But you didn't address the part of the prayer about God's will being done on Earth as it is in Heaven. And how would you say that God's will is being done in Heaven?

    And the part of Romans that I wanted to address was the highlighted portion that says God will make a short work upon the earth.

    I am wondering how long does the preterist believe that things will go on as they are now upon the Earth? I mean, how and when will this present age end if Jesus is not coming again to establish righteousness in the world?
     
  17. Jo$h

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    Sorry about that I misunderstood your question. [​IMG]

    Commentary from Eerdmans on Matt 10
    The coming of the kingdom means bringing into human life the eternal reign of God. It was "at hand" when Jesus began his ministry and every event in His career was a further step in its coming until the final consumation (70AD) Thy will be done .... is peculiar to Matthew and seems explanatory of the previous phrase. It involves present ethical response but is in the context of God's eschatological activity.

    Thus God's will for His Kingdom was fulfilled when Jesus "came with clouds" in the destruction of Jerusalem. In Revelation, John sees things which must shortly come, the time of which was at hand. In chapter 11 verse 15 he says, "and the seventh angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

    Christ came in His eternal, Spiritual kingdom "in the days of these kings", "in the last days" of the Judah and Jerusalem system of things, "immediately after the tribulation of those days", (referring to the besiegement and destruction of Jerusalem), "before that generation ceased," and before "some which stand here will taste death." Those who truly believe Him have eternal life, they will never die. (John 11:25-26) thus they will reign forever in a eternal kingdom in the Heavenly Jerusalem from above. (Gal 4:21-31)

    Jesus told Pilate in John 18:36-37, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Pilate asked, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus replied, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness of the truth." It is quite obvious that Jesus was indicating that his kingdom was spiritual and not physical. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because they looked for a physical king and a physical kingdom. The Sadducees in Matthew 22 erred in understanding the resurrection because they thought only in physical terms. Physical thinking caused Jesus' disciples to draw a wrong conclusion regarding His statement to beware of the leaven of the Sadducees and the Pharisees. Nicodemus had trouble with Jesus' statement that one must be born again to enter the kingdom. Nicodemus thought only in terms of a physical re-entry into his mother's womb and physically being born, but Jesus indicated that it was a spiritual rebirth. Please note that the writer is not saying that there was no physical obedience involved. Jesus said born of water and spirit.

    In Luke 17:20-21, when asked when the kingdom would come, Jesus replied that, "the kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    To the Jew there are only 2 ages the mosaic and the messianic, not some made up church age that was never prophecised in the OT.

    The following is a quote from Judaism 101

    "However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach(Messiah) is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (achareet ha-yameem), which is the time of the moshiach(Messiah); thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.

    Matt 24:3
    As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the Close of the Age?"

    Jesus of course was living in "End of Days" End of what days? The End of what age? The mosiac economy the old heaven and earth. There is only one other age to chose from.

    As far as how long things will go on the Earth.

    the great Presbyterian theologian B. B. Warfield, who held that we are still living in the early Church, with thousands of years ahead of us. I expect future generations will be better able to answer some of these questions than I am.“ [Biblical Horizons Occasional Papers No.4, page 16]

    For a long winded anwser to your question refer to this site http://prophecyrefi.org/art-2004_ets-paper.htm
    read restoring the Kingdom of God Worldview.

    As far the last part of your question
    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

    Righteousness was establish for "your people and your holy city"

    [ November 24, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]
     
  18. JackRUS

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    Jo$h.
    You say that the righteousness that Christ wants established in His prayer is somehow established in Daniel's prophesy in verse 9:24.

    Daniel's people in that verse are the Jewish nation and the holy city is Jerusalem. How is there righteousness established with these non-believers?

    And again, the pat preterist answer is that the kingdom is spiritual and not of this world. But how then can God's will be done here as it is in Heaven if the kingdom is only in Heaven?

    This event of Christ's appearing and establishing righteousness on Earth that we futurists await is the "blessed hope" of Titus 2:13. I am wonder what is hope is in the mind of the preterist?
     
  19. Tim

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    God's kingdom is not OF this world, but it is definitely IN this world.

    It (and true righteousness) was established IN this world when Christ came as Daniel prophesied. It was established among believing Jews which were the first church.

    As`a partial pret, I agree that we still await Christ's return to judge all men, then righteousness will have no competition in the earth as it does now.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    What righteousness are you waiting on? Jesus didn’t establish righteousness? The New Covenant didn’t bring righteousness? Paul would disagree:

    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Gee, I wonder why preterist would say such a thing.

    Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    Pro 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
     

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