Questions

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Scofield, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. Scofield

    Scofield
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    Consider:

    1. Who takes the initiative in working our salvation?
    2. How are we brought to faith? Does the Lord use people as His instruments to accomplish His purpose?
    3. Who determines where the gospel will be preached? Will everyone hear it before Christ returns?
    4. What is true and living faith?
    5. Define the terms 'predestination' and 'election.' (www.bible.crosswalk.com)
    6. Are we free to live the way we want? Can we choose? Keeping in mind we are dead in our sin.
    7. Why do some accept God and others do not if we as people are all equal in our sin?

    The way I see it...

    "I know not how the spirit moves, convincing men of sin, revealing Jesus through the Word, creating faith in him."
     
  2. Skandelon

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    1. Who takes the initiative in working our salvation? God
    2. How are we brought to faith?
    Faith comes by hearing

    Does the Lord use people as His instruments to accomplish His purpose? Yes

    3. Who determines where the gospel will be preached? God said go into all the world.

    Will everyone hear it before Christ returns? Probably not, the bible doesn't address this. It does say that the gospel will be preached in all the world and then he will return. We would have to speculate here.

    4. What is true and living faith? Belief in Christ that endures to the very end and bears fruits.

    5. Define the terms 'predestination' and 'election.'
    Predestination is Gods determining beforehand what should happen to those who believe. Believers will be adopted as sons and be conformed to Christ's image. We still await this as believers.

    Election is choice. God chose Israel to carry the message of the Christ to the world. God chose to allow the Gentiles entrance into the covenant of grace. etc.

    6. Are we free to live the way we want? Yes, within the limits of our God given abilities. I can't start flapping my arms and fly because that is not within my abilities. I can make moral choices.

    Can we choose? Keeping in mind we are dead in our sin. Yes we choose. Dead in sin is never defined in scripture as being unable to respond to the powerful Holy Spirit wrought message of the gospel.

    7. Why do some accept God and others do not if we as people are all equal in our sin? Some harden their heart and refuse to believe others do not. God gets all the glory.

    The bible tells us how the spirit does these things. The gospel message convinces, reveals and produces faith.

    If faith is produced independantly by the Spirit in an inward secret manner as Calvinists seem to think then why does God rebuke men for their lack of faith? Shouldn't God rebuke himself for not granting them faith?
     
  3. Scofield

    Scofield
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    Faith comes by hearing
    Amen, but God is the arthor of faith.

    God said go into all the world .
    Amen again. GOD said.

    Probably not, the bible doesn't address this. It does say that the gospel will be preached in all the world and then he will return. We would have to speculate here.
    Not everyone will have a chance to accept or reject Christ.

    Belief in Christ that endures to the very end and bears fruits.
    Amen.

    Predestination is Gods determining beforehand what should happen to those who believe. Believers will be adopted as sons and be conformed to Christ's image. We still await this as believers.
    If predestination is only what 'should' happen, then how is it predestination? It's not.

    Election is choice. God chose Israel to carry the message of the Christ to the world. God chose to allow the Gentiles entrance into the covenant of grace. etc.
    I agree 'God chose.'

    Yes, within the limits of our God given abilities. I can't start flapping my arms and fly because that is not within my abilities. I can make moral choices.
    True, but they are affected by sin, are they not?

    Yes we choose. Dead in sin is never defined in scripture as being unable to respond to the powerful Holy Spirit wrought message of the gospel.
    Great answer, but a problem with my question. The Holy Spirit enables us to 'choose.' That was the point I was trying to make.

    Some harden their heart and refuse to believe others do not. God gets all the glory.
    The harts of man are already harden...or did God harden them? We see that God did harden Pharaoh's hart, and one was lost to fulfill scripture. (John 17:12) Your answer really isn't an answer. The question is why do some believe?

    The bible tells us how the spirit does these things. The gospel message convinces, reveals and produces faith.

    It does, it is God all the way. The verse I quoted was to emphasis us not knowing why some are saved and others are not if God is the arthor of our faith, if faith is a gift of God why didn't God give it to everyone? Why are not all men saved if that is what God had planned?

    If faith is produced independantly by the Spirit in an inward secret manner as Calvinists seem to think then why does God rebuke men for their lack of faith?

    It is because of the stain of sin. It's like having a jukie for a son. You still love them and want them to seek help, but they're in the grip of the drug as we are in the grip of sin. God chose to step in and save some. Potter's freedom Romans 9.

    Shouldn't God rebuke himself for not granting them faith?
    This is my question to those who believe God gives us the choose, why doesn't everyone believe if we are able to see the goodness of God's great mercy? We can not on our own...

    God bless and thanks for the answers.
    Sco
     
  4. Skandelon

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    You're right Christ is the author of our faith, just as Brigham Young is the author of the JW's faith. Your point?

    We don't know that for sure because the bible doesn't address it specifically. We would have to speculate.

    Your right, I 'should' have said 'would,' change that. [​IMG]

    Sure, which is why God must take the initiative. He did by sending Christ, the apostles, the gospel and the Holy Spirit.

    Yes the Holy Spirit does enable us to choose. How? By sending us the powerful message of salvation. Without that we would not have a choice to make, would we?

    I agree. God did harden some peoples hearts for a time. Some believe because they were persuaded by the powerful Holy Spirit wrought message of the cross.

    I believe faith, the belief in the unseen, is within all mankinds capasity. He is the author of the Christian Faith but that doesn't mean he only selects a certain group of people to give it to, as if only the elect have the capasity to believe in the unseen. People express faith in all types of religions. Faith that is in Christ is what saves.

    That doesn't answer the question. Why would you rebuke your son for remaining a junkie if you were the only one who had to power to set him free from that condition and were outwardly calling him to become free, but secretly were keeping him from having that ability?

    It would be like a man in prison who was being called by the warden to come out of the prison or he would be killed, yet the warden is the only one with the key. This makes the warden seem like a vicious unfair man. Why would he call him if he knew he was locked in without the key and then further why would he punish him for not obeying the call to come? Doesn't make much sense by anyones standard and its not supported biblically.

    Romans 9 is not about the elect (saved) and the non-elect (those going to hell). Its about those being shown mercy (Gentiles) and those being temporarily hardened (Jews.) Some of those being "shown mercy" will go to hell and some of those being hardened will go to heaven depending upon their faith. Read Romans 10 and 11 for further explaination.

    Your not understanding my question. If you are right and God only grants certain people faith then why would he rebuke men for their lack of faith? See my point?

    Peace.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Scofield

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    The warden has tossed the keys into the cell but the prisoner refuses to use the keys. So the warden in this case walks down the row and opens the doors according to His purpose. It is supported Biblically.

    I do understand the question. People go to hell because of sin, no doubt and God owes us nothing. We do see in the Bible that God is the one who did the choosing. Mark 13:20, Eph. 1:4, Col. 3:12, Matt. 11:27, Psalm 65:4, 1 Cor. 1:27-29, John 15:16, 1 Thess. 2:13-14, etc., etc.

    God bless,
    Sco
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    That undermines the purpose of the analogy. If the warden has tossed the keys in the cell then He has given them the ability to respond. Do you believe all men have that ability or are only certain ones enabled?

    If you understand the question why don't you address it? I know people are in hell because of sin and I never said God owed us anything. But the question was, "If God only give faith to certain individuals why does he rebuke men for their lack of faith?"

    Can you address that question?

    As a former Calvinist I have applied most of these verses to memory and none of them address the question I presented concerning faith.

    If you would like to discuss these verses we can, but I would like to deal with one issue at a time if possible.

    Thanks [​IMG]
     
  7. Scofield

    Scofield
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    The sinner is rebuked for not repenting for the same reason they are damned, because of sin. God is not obliged to give any one faith, salvation is by Grace and the idea that God is obliged to give faith to someone would be merit and not Grace. Grace defined is totally undeserved. God’s reasons for not offering salvation to every sinner lies in God Himself. Mankind refuses to repent because of the sinful heart. I find the Bible teaches God deliberately withholds repentance from some men and also understand that this is not the cause of their inability to repent. God, the warden does not and is not obligated to remove the binds of sin from the heart but leaves them in their sin of chose. In short, God hates sin.

    So, why do some accept Christ and others don't? It's an honest question. Are not all men sinners and there hearts harden?

    God bless,

    Sco
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Could you point to the verse where faith is seen as a work of the law? You won't find one.

    Paul condemns those who pursue righteousness as if it were by works of the law, but he praises them for pursuing it by faith. Faith is not considered by Paul to be a work. You make that link, he does not.

    Problem. God does offer salvation to every sinner. The Spirit of the Bride says come to all mankind. The scripture says, "Go into ALL the world and preach the gospel." This gospel calls all to faith and repentance. God shows mercy to all men (Romans 11:32)

    Yes it is and I answered it.

    Yes, all men are sinners. No, all men are not hardened.
     
  9. Scofield

    Scofield
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    I've just had a chance to re-read the thread. I think we both offered something to chew on, so without beating a dead horse....God bless.

    Sco
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    You probably didn't see my last post but if your ready to call it a day. I understand. I'm here if your interested in talking again sometime.

    Thanks:)
     
  11. Scofield

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    No, sorry I didn't see your last post. Thanks for the offer. I want to take a walk around the forum a little before I dig a trench or draw battle lines. I have only a handful of posts and all are in here. [​IMG] I will come back to this for sure, and thanks for the give and take.

    Scofield
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    I look forward to it.

    God bless. And happy surfing. [​IMG]
     

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