Rain on the "Just" and "Unjust" ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Inspector Javert, Jul 6, 2013.

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  1. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert
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    Typed this response in another thread wherein Calvinists were attempting to argue that since "rain falls on the just and the un-just"...that God "loves" everyone:
    I thought this response was warranted:
    Yes it does.
    And wiser men know that it would be more loving of God to simply never have created or breathed the breath of life into the poor damned wretch to begin with.

    It were certainly better for the pre-damned wretch for God NEVER to have CREATED THEM than that he possibly give them some 75+years of temporal Earthly "prosperity" only to condemn them to an infinite ETERNITY of torture. I'm pretty sure anyone would take the "just don't create me to begin with" option, if given a choice.

    B.T.W: Isn't this "rain shines on just and unjust" argument taxed a little more than it can pay?

    Lemme ask the Cal sycophants who are so addicted to this crack-rock of an argument a few questions:

    1.) Do ALL of the condemned receive this "rain" or earthly blessing? I mean..do ALL of the "condemned" receive a "love" from God in terms of temporal Earthly prosperity?

    2.) Aren't there MANY heathen condemned persons who ostensibly live their ENTIRE LIVES in squalor, poverty emotional and physical pain who go on to an eternity of hell and torment?

    3.) Do you contend that ALL (heck even MOST) of the damned live lives of temporal happiness and success?

    4.) If "the rain shines on the just and the un-just" don't the "monsoons" and "floods" and "tornadoes" and "hurricanes" do likewise?

    5.) Does God protect the damned from natural disasters and famine and plague and war in a way such that they are "loved" by not ever having to experience them?

    6.) Does the following scenario I am proposing NOT exist?

    a.) A young girl is born to impoverished parents in India in 900 a.d.
    b.) Her "father" is a vicious and perverted wretch who cares little for his wife or his own children
    c.) Her "father" divides his time between working, paying insurmountable debts and visiting with disease-ridden un-bathed prostitutes who have given him venereal diseases which he passed on to his wife years ago, purchasing opiates and alcohol to dull the misery and meaningless and pain of his existence, and occasionally molesting his 8-year old daughter who subsists on roughly a bowl of rice and some tepid water a day plus some aging and fouling fish once per week.
    d.) At the age of twelve her father dies, and she and her widowed mother (who statistically had 3 children die in infancy or before age 5) scrape out a living gathering refuse and weaving carpets and drapes for a nominal subsistence.
    e.) When our fortunate lass reaches the age of fifteen her mother dies of a combination of malnutrition, leprosy and the venereal diseases her "husband" passed onto her 15-years ago.
    f.) Our young lass (not knowing how else to eek out a meager existence) resorts to some form of prostitution in order survive..........(after all, she lost her virginity at age 7 to her father anyway no?)
    g.) She feels little or no guilt for her life-style since she was born (according to God's perfect [and quite loving] decree) a sinner who "wants" to do nothing but sin and hasn't heard the gospel or that anyone "loves" her (whatever the heck that means).
    h.) After 15 years of survival as a prostitute and at the ripe old age of 30 she shares a particular venereal disease with a man not unlike her own loving "father" who then passes that on to his OWN wife (but this is ancillary to our story).
    More importantly......at the age of thirty.....she is withered, sick, aged, broken-down, and looks like she is fifty or more, and cannot reasonably charge the 10 rupees she used to charge....(since there are too many 16-year olds commanding that price)......so she has to drop her price down to 5 rupees per encounter.
    I.) Eight years, 5 mis-carriages and one (now deceased) son who survived to the age of 4 later, she dies at the happy old age of 38..........sick and broken-down while bathing in the filthy waters of the Ganges River hoping to wash away her "sins" (whatever those are)........and she goes on to the GLORIOUS "loving" eternity of perpetual fires and punishment for her status as the "non-elect".....After all, she is indeed a "sinner" who "chose" to reject a God she's never heard of, thus, she must suffer eternally for having rejected him.

    Conclusion: Calvinists delude themselves with this scenario of prosperity pouring down on the damned. You can have the "rain on just and unjust" argument sure................as long as you include my (quite accurate) scenario along with it. I promise you, it's far more common than the billionaire play-boy scenario you imagine.

    As I stated earlier....................if my wife "loved" me in a similar manner as God as taught by Calvinism is a God who "loves".................................................
    I'll pass on Calvinism "love", and just take the "don't create or 'love' me at all" option.

    Care to defend your scenario farther?
     
  2. Winman

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  3. Mexdeaf

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  4. Inspector Javert

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    Why don't you forget D.A. Carson and answer the O.P. you've been presented with?

    Don't worry...an unnamed Calvinist Mod will ban me for being an un-apologetic and un-intimidated non-Calvinist quite soon...but why don't YOU offer an explanation?

    I'm pretty sure Carson has no rejoinder for the O.P. I've already presented.
    Why don't you speak for yourself Mex...I did.
    Please explain for us why our Prostitute who has reveled in, and enjoyed God's "love"..........is an apt example of the notion of "love" as you understand it.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    If he loves us so much, then why does he kill us? Why is there cancer, why is there wars, murder & torture? If he loves us, why couldn't he eliminate pain & suffering, brutality & inhumanity?
     
  6. Mexdeaf

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    I'm still struggling to understand some of the points of reformed theology. Unlike you, I do not have all of the answers. Carson made it pretty simple to understand if you will care to read it.
     
  7. DrJamesAch

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    DA Carson writes from a perspective that his theology DOES NOT SUPPORT, which is being blatantly dishonest. For example:

    "I argue, then, that both Arminians and Calvinists should rightly affirm that Christ died for all, in the sense that Christ’s death was sufficient for all and that Scripture portrays God as inviting, commanding, and desiring the salvation of all, out of love (in the third sense developed in the first chapter)"

    DA Carson, nor any Calvinist no more believes that Christ died for all than the Pope believes any Baptist will go to heaven.

    The ONLY reason that any Calvinist maintains any language about the love of God at all, is because they know they would lose credibility, and could not be considered evangelistic. Calvinist churches preach one message to sinners from a perspective that they themselves DO NOT BELIEVE.

    Now notice Carson's blatant admission to being dishonest in the very next sentence after the above quote:

    "Further, all Christians ought also to confess that, in a slightly different sense, Christ Jesus, in the intent of God, died effectively for the elect alone, in line with the way the Bible speaks of God’s special selecting love for the elect (in the fourth sense developed in the first chapter)."

    Not only is that an explicit contradiction from the view of the former paragraph of the quote, but shows clearly that Calvinists should EXPLAIN GOD DIFFERENTLY THAN HOW THEY REALLY BELIEVE.

    In a nut shell, Carson says agree with the Arminians when evangelizing, agree with the Calvinists when discipling. Shuck and jive.
     
  8. DrJamesAch

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    Frankly, I'm GLAD he brought DA Carson up because it demonstrates the utter dishonesty of Calvinism in practice.
     
  9. jbh28

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    There's no contradiction at all here. What was stated in the first quote is what Calvinist believe. The death of Christ is sufficient to pay for everyone sins. I don't know of any Calvinist that would not agree with that. The second point can only be disagreed with if one is a universalist. The death of Christ is only effective for the believers. (the elect and the believers are the same group of people)
     
  10. Mexdeaf

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    It is no more "dishonest" than your theology.
     
  11. saturneptune

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    When you first started posting, I thought you had some common sense. That has radically changed. Your posts are disrespectful to God, the Arminian side, the Calvinist side, and to Christians in general. Aren't you the one that called God a "love sick fool?" That is more than enough for banishment right there. And you had the gall to call me the names you did in a PM with relation to the Jewish faith? Do you talk like this at home and at work, if you have a job?
     
  12. Inspector Javert

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    Answering these questions in a serious, systematic, Orthodox and Biblical way will get me banned....but, while I remain a poster...I can address each and every question you pose here systematically and Biblically.
    So here goes:
     
  13. Winman

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    Actually, that is quite scriptural and said in Song of Solomon twice.

    SgS 2:5 Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love.

    SgS 5:8 I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love.

    Now, it is true that this applies to the church, nevertheless, this is the language used to speak of the relationship between Christ and his Bride in this book.
     
  14. DrJamesAch

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    I'm not disagreeing that such is what Calvinists believe, that is exactly the point. It's the PRESENTATION of stated beliefs to the unsaved that is dishonest. The Calvinist is willing to lie to a potential convert by not being honest with them about what they really believe.

    And no, the second point does not lead to universalism, only a universal OFFER which even Carson himself vouched for in how to represent the gospel to sinners. Universalism is the belief that everyone will be SAVED, not OFFERED salvation.

    The Calvinist theology compares material blessings as if that type of demonstration compared to eternal damnation is somehow a valid explanation of the consistent and perfect love of God. The Calvinist admits that God COULD HAVE chosen that all would be elect, but instead, holds that God predetermines some to be saved and others to be damned. Note: PRE-DETERMINES them to be damned. Thus if God saved ONLY the elect because He simply wanted to, then that means He created the reprobate for the sole purpose of condemning Him and DESIRING his eternal damnation without ever having provided an offer of salvation that can ACTUALLY be accepted.

    That is NOT the God of love in the Bible. It is one thing to be just and judge sin when the person has been given the opportunity to repent and believe the gospel, whom then rejects the offer, and is thus RIGHTLY judged. It is quite another to predetermine the sinner to eternal damnation over which he never has a choice but to be damned, and is so damned merely because God WANTS him to be damned. That is a perverted view of the nature of God.
     
  15. Inspector Javert

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    Line by line:
     
    #15 Inspector Javert, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2013
  16. Winman

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    Well, I am certainly both an un-apologetic and bold Arminian and KJVO and I am still here.

    I must be lacking the intelligent part. :laugh:
     
  17. Inspector Javert

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    Don't post Scriptures like this Winman...

    There is a certain unnamed Calvinist Mod who will ban you for directly quoting God's Word in this manner....I've already been snipped and given the warning for this heretical "Bible-Speak" you are using here.
     
  18. saturneptune

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    I do not know where you get the imbalance of Calvinists and non Calvinists in board discipline. I will be glad to send you a list of my infractions.
     
  19. jbh28

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    theres nothing to be dishonest about. Just like Adoniram Judson, William Carey, Charles Spurgeon, Luther Rice, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, John Eliot, John Patton nor David Brainerd were being dishonest when they spoke to the lost. We give the the gospel. Anyone that believes will be saved.
    Of course. I said disagreement with the second point would be universalism.

    It could be accepted if the person wanted to accept it. The problem is the person rejecting God's offer of salvation. Besides, all people deserve hell. Everyone one of us. So God has every right to create people and not offer salvation to anyone. We don't deserve salvation nor the chance to be saved.

    If God never offered salvation, we would still all deserve hell. John 3:18 says that because a person doesn't believe, he is already condemned. We deserve God's wrath because we are sinners. It's by God's love and mercy that he saved anyone. No one deserved the chance to be saved. It's not something God was obligated to offer.
     
  20. Inspector Javert

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    Meh....you survive because of your peaceability. You are a peaceful and non-confrontational sort of man....That's why you survive...don't worry...the first time you get nixed by unnamed Calvinist mods and you react by doubling-down on the truth of Scripture........

    They will crush the Scriptural truths you speak by brute force.

    Calvinism has only and ALWAYS appealed to "brute-force" in order to grant itself preeminence... it is no different on B.B. Calvinism by it's very nature obsesses on only ONE of God's attributes, and that is the attribute of Omnipotence.
    Calvinists just get their jollies off so much on the idea of brute force and power, that they can perceive nothing else.
    Various Calvinists will utilize "power" (never reason) to silence the voices of those with whom they disagree.

    See how often they scream for "Mod" intervention vs. us Arminians:

    Calvin guaranteed the preeminence of his system by force, persecution, power and blood.
    The Mods on B.B. are no different.
     
    #20 Inspector Javert, Jul 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2013
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