Raising Hands in Worship

Private prayer is not a public demonstration. Handraising is. I am not suggesting we leave ourselves out of worship and become a mass.

My point in this is that you are admitting that some private acts of worship are inappropriate. My question is on what basis some are considered inappropriate and others not. Handraising can be very disruptive for the people sitting behind you or beside you.

Isn't this something we should all do, though? Aren't the commands for lifting up hands plural? Psa 134:2 has been invoked. That is a plural command, presumably to the congregation assembled. Not to individuals. So why is it being taken as an individual command? Are there any commands to raise hands in worship given to individuals?

And isn't this my point? Don't do it in the corporate body unless it is for everyone.

Didn't he just do that?

What passage do you have in mind?

 

Pastor Larry...

Because you have said repeatedly, over and over and over, that you dont think its proper for one person to do it individually during corporate worship. You have said it over and over and over and over again.

So why do you now say "Why do you think I'm so closed to it"?

Dont change the subject, Larry. We have not been talking about raising hands, we have consistently and specifically been discussing an individual brother or sister choosing to do it on their own during corpoate worship. Every response I have made to you has been about that issue, since that is the only topic we are discussing.

Really? It blesses me greatly when I see a brother or sister individually raising their hands during corporate worhip in love to their Father. I've heard others say it blesses them, and Brother Bob has said individual shouts of "Amen" during his preaching blesses him.

Well, its been posted several times on this thread. I'll post it yet again...

Hmmmmm. Let me ask you: Do you really mean to say that if someone doesnt worship just as you do (not individually raisng hands in corporate worship) they cant seem to see the Lords blessing?

Are YOU insisting that everyone respond just as you would, without individually raising hands during worship?

Mike

 

Pastor Larry, can you show us a place in the Bible where it does tell us exactly what forms of worship is acceptible and/or 'corporate' that specifically deny the raising of hands. (I realize that you are not 'against' it per-se, but you are not 'for it' either as it seems that you consider it an individual abberration which you feel is disruptive of corporate service, and out of place.)

The congregational song service is already interactive. I do not see where the raising or not raising of the hands becomes so disturbing. There are things much more disturbing to me that I've seen happen in church.... like people talking during the message, folks passing notes, kids attending adult worship and allowed to scream out without removal by their parents........ and fortunately I seldom witness such at the church I attend.

The preaching portion of the service is not interactive unless the pastor carries it in that direction. I would presume that he is guided by the Holy Spirit. I would hope also that the participation of the congregation is also guided by the Holy Spirit. Isn't there something about worship which is responsive?

No, it is not a correct analogy to equate a ballgame with a worship service: But to have more enthusiasm and 'heart' into attending a ball game then going to church seems like it could be a form of idolatry: Where we're more eager to meet with our friends in a social and entertainment experience than to meet together to worship God. Why not 'clap your hands, all you people, shout unto God with the voice of triumph/praise' occassionally. If we did a little more of bending the knee or raising the hands, perhaps we might be more physically and spiritually fit to have our feet take us into all the world with the good news rather than content to sit in a pew warming the cushions with our hineys.

I suppose there are some services which are conducted and unruly...... but that may be the fault of the leadership including the pastor/shepherd. If I attend your church and realize by the temperment of the body that some things aren't done i.e. raising the hands in praise to God during the music, then I will refrain; except if and only if I have a compulsion within my spirit that raising my hands would be a worshipful obediance to God ....with or with out pastorial permission. Then, if rebuked, I would accept that humbly and take it under careful and prayerful advisement that the shepherd of the flock is not only over me in authority, but is also bears responsibility before God for the direction and training which I receive and others also, and therefore I would submit to his authority or go elsewhere.

I would agree that some expressions, during the preaching, may actually be a distraction from the message. On the other hand, if someone in the congregation feels the necessity to go forward early 'to the bar' to pray quietly through the remainder of your preaching, what is that to you if the spirit of God led them? Does it mean you must stop what your doing to minister individually to their need? I don't think so. I would imagine that it might provoke some action on the part of a deacon or counselor to approach such a person and inquire, and perhaps direct them to a course of action more in keeping with the order of the service, while that persons needs would be addressed in a Christ like compassionate way.

My SBC pastor has preached on conduct during the services. Though we don't have but maybe 3 or 4 people in the whole church which will say 'amen' sometimes ....and they are not disruptive as it occurs immediately after a good point in the message, much as an punctuation mark: regarding saying 'amen'
he pointed out that it was not to discourage folks from saying it, but to alert them to the importance of its meaning 'so be it'. If the pastor has just made a statement regarding the lack of moral leadership in the community.....just because one may feel it is true doesn't mean one wishes to endorse it with an 'amen'.

Of the 5 ministers at my church, their is one who sings in the choir. Ocassionally a particlular hymn seems to touch him especially and his small gestures of his hand to his heart or his hand directed upward are not intrusive but seems to direct the attention of others listening that it is not the melody or the harmony that gives meaning to the worship, but the message in the words, which have meaning and provoke feelings.
Congregate worship is identification with others in shared fellowship to worship (interact) in focus and praise to God. Is there unity? Is there individual participation required? Maybe worship needs to be defined. Doesn't the pastor have the right to direct it as God leads him? Doesn't he have the power to give instruction to his flock regarding the offense and offering of 'strange fire'? Is not this more appropriate (to give proper instruction) than restricting the services to the most solemn and formal expression? If too much emphasis is placed on formality, are we there to worship God or go through the motions of ritual and attendance? When we come before the Lord with thanksgiving and joy, what expresses this and is it limited if contained too much within formality? Is worship strictly defined by what the pastor does? Doesn't the congregate worship also contribute and 'feed' to the pastor the spiritual reflection of his congregation before he gives back in the message?

Unity in purpose doesn't negate the possiblity of individual expression, but it does refine it within boundaries of responsibility to the body to contribute and not hinder, to be orderly in submission to the spirit and not create confusion; which also means submission to leadership; love for the brethern also means submitting oneself to be discerning of the sensitivities of others to not create offense or distraction, or an atmosphere so rigid that they cannot feel welcomed to worship God.

Oh, I am reminded of the mother of Samuel, who appeared troubled during the worship in the Temple and how God lead Eli to minister. I am reminded of Jesus taking the children in his arms when they and their mother's had been rebuked by his disciples; of the blind man crying over the message being delivered to the crowd. I am not offering these antedotes to persuade anyone to do these things, but as a reminder that sometimes God moves in unexpected ways. Worship is an extension of our faith, individually and collectivelly. One cannot have a collective without individuals. Individuals do not form a collective without some unity and purpose in identification with others.


Peace.

 

Isn't that in teh context of everybody saying amen?

how do you know? Have you talked to everyone behind you and around you about it? (I am not questioning your motive but your basis for saying this. I am quite sure that the lady in front of me raising her hands and swinging her hips back and forth did not think she was disruptive. She however was totally unqualified to judge that).

Since you asked, I would say No, you probably shouldn't sit down while everyone else is standing any more than you should stand up while everyone else is sitting. The point of corporate worship is that people are lifting their voices together to worship God, not lifting them individually. Pray during singing? Singing should be prayer, in most cases, or teaching. So yes, you should pray during singing.

 

ACtually what I have said over and over again is that I am unconvinced that acts of individualism are appropriate during times of corporate worship. I ask why you think I am closed to it because I have never said that. I do not konw where you would get that from.

Don't pretend like I am against raising hands. I am not. I am unconvinced that individualism is appropriate for corporate worship. That is the topic.

Okay. I find it very distracting. I find it very disruptive when people shout out while I am preaching. I often find it distracting to sit behind someone raising hands.

This is a plural imperative, meaning that everyone is supposed to do it, it seems to me. This is not a directive for individuals to do it.

No, I have never said that. Which is why turning the question around doesn't work.

No, as you can tell from my posting.

I think perhaps some remedial reading courses might be in order for you, Mike. Seriously, we can do better than this can't we? Don't accuse me of stuff I haven't said.

 

No.

I am unconvinced about it.

 

My reading skills are more than adequate, Larry...but I appreciate your "concern". :laugh:

God bless,

Mike

 

Then please use them and don't misrepresent what I have said. It would help the conversation.

 

This is the type of nonsense that, quite frankly, just ticks me off. It is indicative of someone who is not thoughtfully reading and interacting with the issues. You are not the only guilty party here. Others have done it, and as I can recall, only one has apologized for misreading what I said.

Why in the world would you think I am "so regimented and stifled"? If God spoke to me (as he has) you may be assured that I would respond to him appropriately.

At no time have I suggested here that you are in sin. I have asked questions looking for information and trying to stimulate some thought. That apparently failed, but in the meantime, you and some others have felt free to make stuff up about my position. How is that edifying or necessary?

Let me state again what I have said here many times: I am unconvinced that acts of individualism are appropriate in corporate worship.

That does not mean I think people who raise their hands are sinful. It does not mean that I object to it, so long as it does not draw attention to oneself. It does not mean that I think raising hands in corporate worship is wrong. And it certainly does not mean that I am regimented and stifled.

I wish you would respond with some theological observations rather than personal ones.

 

So you believe responsiveness to the Spirit of God is a unity thing, or else it is questionable as to the origin of the spirit?

If your eyes offend you, close them. Likewise for those around you. (I've rarely seen 'gyration.....but it does bother me and it doesn't when I close my eyes.... Ha. Ha.... My cure for becoming distracted.) If you're her pastor, then you have the right to council her. If you're not her pastor, I would suggest that you prayerfully consider what, if any, recourse you take, and whether your outcome would benefit her, or just serve your esthetic taste:

Agreed, except, the person on crutches or with other disabilities (observable or not) who might be bothered by the standing. So why make it a directive that presumes or teaches others to judge this before you know for sure that it is an act of rebellion. If you look for 'rebellion' you WILL find it. The enemy loves to distract.

Does the place we assemble to worship ever not become a place for prayer? Can anyone, any time, who feels compelled by the Spirit of God to seek him in silent prayer, do so on their knees, right where they're at without disconcerting the pastor? Perhaps the pastor is too concerned with the preparation he placed into the message, or has not matured enough to hold his focus on the leading of God? Perhaps he doesn't want or expect responsiveness of the congregation or individuals to the leading of God? Instead of conforming to the Spirit, maybe he's expecting conformity to his own expectations and personal tastes?

I think the original question was, if asked by the song leader or pastor, to raise my hands as a member of the congregation, would I take offense..... or feel it was binding on me: No, either way. If for some reason I felt it would offend God, perhaps for unresolved sin or conscience or ability.....then I would feel at liberty not to raise my hands. If there is no reason for me to refrain from raising my hands, then doing as instructed is submission to authority, whether or not there is a purpose in the request. However, when I raise my hands during a congregational song, whether or not instructed, I do it in the exercise of my liberty in Christ in personal praise and adoration of my Lord, or as prayerful appeal to some need on my heart..... and I do this in obediance as the Lord leads without forethought to get pastorial permission. (Should I ever change churches, I may make this one question to ask the next pastor, as I would prefer not to distract him..... and would hope God would lead me to a church where the pastor is more tolerable of individual responsiveness.)

If it is alright for an individual to raise his hands in praise, perhaps the question is why isn't it alright for the congregation to be asked, corporately, to raise its hands? Well, many verses in Psalms have already been cited which endorse the propriety of leadershiip to direct people to lift up their hands. We can choose to focus on God in our worship, or we can choose to focus on others or ourselves in our self-conscience reserve of comfort and propriety. Which is more worshipful, our openness and responsive praise to God, or the limitations of our fears and bondage to personal tastes and appearances?

 

I am not sure exactly what you are asking. Yes, there would be question as to the origin of the Spirit (e.g., the Toronto blessing laughing revival). Individuals respond to the Spirit of God, but what exactly does that look like in corporate worship?

Is this really the biblical solution? if you are causing someone to stumble, why shouldn't you stop? "It's your problem" is not a phrase I find in Scripture. And if I close my eyes, how will I know what the words are to sing?

I am not looking for rebellion, and didn't suggest that the person in question was rebellious. We have some older ladies who sit while everybody else stands. I have no issue with that.

Of course.

Sure.

Why would you? Why not take into account that it is not about you, but about the congregation as a whole. What kind of distraction will you cause for others?

Or perhaps he believes that the Word of God is the most important thing and should not be distracted from by anything, no matter how well intentioned it might be.

Perhaps; perhaps not.

I would think the latter would be very biblical, with biblical support (Psa 134:2). In fact, one of my questions is why isn't the latter the rule of practice in our churches? We don't encourage everyone to sing according to their own desires. We announce a song and sing it together. We don't encourage everyone to pray out loud on their own. We don't encourage them to carry on their own preaching services. We do it together. So why is this any different?

Isn't "many" an overstatement? Do you know how many references in teh Psalms there are to raising hands? Only seven, and they are not all clearly corporate references. So far as I can recall (going from memory) there is only one NT reference (1 tim 2, in the context of prayer, which is probably metaphorical in nature since hands aren't really holy ... they are the tools of our life; he is talking about praying from a holy life).

I object to the way the question is phrased. You assume that "openness and responsive praise" is your position, and my position is "limitations of fear and bondage to personal tastes and appearances." Go back through this thread and look at how much personal taste is appealed to as a reason for raising hands. It is not usually argued here that "God told me to raise hands so I did." It is "I felt the Spirit of God," or some such (whatever that means ... I don't think that was ever clarified).

Meanwhile some have sat in judgment on me because I dared to ask for a theological basis (which has been sparse).

 

The problem with this statement is that you seem to be saying (logically) "I am convinced that acts of individualism are inappropriate in corporate worship." Which is like saying 'doing it is not right. If its not sanctioned before hand, or directed, don't do it.' Which you say is denying what you mean.

What REALLY do you mean? Is there room for individual response to the leading of the Spirit? Or has someone used this arguement to justify their own rebellion and disorderly conduct?

Let's put it another way:
Some folks at your church have interacted with some young people at a youth camp. They are in the same region as your church. You're having a youth revival at your church and they come to the revival along with their parents and friends and are scattered amongs your congregation. During the song service some raise their hands....accustomed to this liberty in their own church and unaware of your particular distraction. A few within you congregation in reading their Bible or discussing it with their SS teachers, are not fully conversant with your reservation, and start doing this without your leadership. What shall you do? Will you preach against it? On what basis? That it may distract others who could easily close their eyes instead of allowing their attention to wander? Will you preach to them as to the purpose of worship, the orderliness and obediance to the Spirit and what is acceptible within the 'sacrifice of praise' that they offer to the Lord? Will you feel comfortable telling them that 'raising of hands without direction to do so is disorderly conduct and not corporate worship' and therefore inappropriate? As unconvince that you are of its 'appropriatenes' is your waffling over this issue also because you're not entirely convinced that it is 'inappropriate' if the Spirit so leads this response in some of the congregants? Some songs even state lifting of the hands.....inwhich case, is it then permissible while in singing such verses, some are led to do so......even though the whole congregation singing the same song, doesn't do so? Is it acceptible for those who are 'doers' of these words and not hearers/singers only? Ought the pastor to fully control the congregation or is there some liberty for the Holy Spirit to move within the body. Without participating in the sharing of worship with others and the interaction of the personal expressions of individuals within the worship which give similar identification within my Spirit.....why bother with church? My body is already a temple. I can sing and praise and dance and raise my hands at home, as well as pray and read my Bible: I can give my money to charity and missions, and my time in community service at a rest home or shelter: I can attend SS for instruction and fellowship: I can watch worship services on t.v. and sing the songs, listen to the prayers, and listen to the preaching while I do dishes, and cook meals, and clean the floors. And if going to church means that I'm just to be a puppet who's strings are pulled at another "man's" commands......then 'church' is dead and I would do as well to stay home and give God my gifts elsewhere. The body, even the local body, is a living breathing interacting organism.

If you ever study anatomy and physiology, you'd understand the concept of 'homeostasis'. This is a scientific concept whereby the body is constantly functioning between its control centers in the brain and nervous system with the function of circulation, organs, and glands in a dynamic 'return to balance' to maintain the health of the body. A fever may produce perspiration to cool down and thirst to restore fluids. Proper response is to drink more fluids to help the body cool and flush waste from the system. One has a bout with diarrhea, and eletrolytes start getting out of whack.....so one ups the Gatorade or some other electrolyte fluids. Nausea sets in and prevents the fluids from staying down, so one must visit the doctor to get IV's or take a supository or shot for nausea to keep the Gatorade down. Each and every imbalance is dependant upon the appropriate response by an organ or system within the body, an individual response within the collective, to return to balance: In the meantime it is all dependant on the brain (leadership) heart (circulation/ fellowship) and respiration (the Spirit). ------Just my thoughts. God put healing in our physical bodies, and some of it is a significant but individualistic responsiveness to the directions by the organs without the direct involvement of other organs (though their support doesn't cease). The body of Christ can be just as dynamic and alive: But one can remove the leadership, or the spirit, or disrupt the fellowship and bring on destruction in a church.

 

I think you are confusing the use of the negative here. “Unconvinced that we should” is not the same as “convinced that we should not.”

Simply what I said, that I am unconvinced as to the appropriateness of acts of individualism is corporate worship. I am not convinced that it is wrong. I am not convinced that it is right. My inclination is that it is inappropriate. But as I explained earlier, that is my (not someone else’s) inclination (not conviction).

Of course. My concern is with the public nature of that response.

No doubt they have.

I am not sure at this point. I am not facing that issue as of now. As I say, we have people who do it from time to time and I don’t worry about it.

I wouldn’t call it waffling. I am not really back and forth. Just curious if people here have given it more thought than “I saw a verse somewhere about it and the dude next to me does it.”

I would be inclined that if a song directs us to do it, we should all do it.

Again, I object to the presentation. I don’t think “fully control” is what any pastor would agree to. My reservations have nothing to do with control at all.

First, because it is commanded. But I have not objected to the sharing in worship. I think we should. Which is part of my concern. Are we really “sharing in worship” if we are each doing our own thing with our eyes closed? I am not sure that we are. Sharing means we do it together.

Your following paragraph (which I won’t quote for sake of space) seems a very deficient view of the church. You are almost (if not completely) saying that if I can’t raise my hands I shouldn’t eve go.

I agree, but fail to see how that is relevant here.

 

Meant to add, the failure of one part to function as directed to return the body to health also results in sickness and perhaps death. Do all organs get the same message: No, only those to whom the message is sent.
----------
So I feel God told me, or the Spirit led me to raise my hands. How do I theologically tell you? I use the terms/vocabulary according to my understanding. If I have the patience to communicate with you, then it must at least meant something to me that you understand. If you have patience to communicate with me then it must mean something to you that I understand.

You hear and interpret differently according to your understanding, as do I. Neither of us have agreed together in Spirit because, though we may have the same Spirit within, our understanding is filtered through our personal experiences, and what we THINK the other is saying: or suggest for clarification as to whether is meant 'thus and so'.

I will apologize to you for not understanding what exactly you mean. I'm still in the body (flesh) and it is not yet meant for me to know (understand) as perfectly as someday I will know. You may not count any of the posters discussion with you as patience.....but I count that you're continued responsiveness was patience, at least towards me. Be that as it may, I'm sorry it was unfruitful in acheiving my understanding of your position, Pastor Larry.

Peace!

 

Very distracting for focused people.
If done in a humid building, can be smelly too.

 

wouldn't do to bring up "washing feet" now would it?

Pro 16:18Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

 

Does this mean one who raises one's hands, even at God's direction, is "unfocused?"

Does this mean that anyone who says, "Amen" is distracting other "focused" people?

Priesthood of the believer rears its head again. I'm not going to tell someone how to worship God, if they are not contradicting His Word with their practices. And lifting one's hands contradicts nothing in Scripture that I can find.

Of course, there's always a teachable moment to instruct folks about submitting to one another, and that when we let go of the "it's about me" mindset, our churches will make great strides forward for the kingdom.