Random children salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Matthew 19:14
    Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”


    Is God choosing children randomly or can a father and a mother be assured if God called their children home at a young that they can be assured Jesus is calling them to Himself. That they can let their children go to the Lord and have no doubt they are saved?

    Do you believe God chooses one Infant and let another suffer in hell so His election will stand?

    I do believe that many that don't want to believe in total depraved from birth is for hope for children who die young who don't know their right hand from their left hand or at an age of accountability and isn't for their own hope or those who are at the age of accountability.
     
    #1 psalms109:31, Jan 26, 2012
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  2. convicted1

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    I think this was an analogy of humbleness. Except ye humble yourselves as one of these little ones, ye shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. God resists the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.
     
  3. Ruiz

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    Any theologian who says that they know for sure what the Bible teaches, probably does not understand the debate. For me, I do not know but I know that I can trust God. If I can trust God, I do not need to try to make verses say something they are not saying... I can trust that whether they are saved or not, I can trust Him.

    BTW, if God chooses, it is not random. So, part of the question is askewed.
     
  4. psalms109:31

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    Amen but wasn't the disciples trying to stop the children from coming to Jesus?
     
    #4 psalms109:31, Jan 26, 2012
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  5. psalms109:31

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    "Again, we think it would be inconsistent utterly with*"the known character of our Lord Jesus Christ."When his disciples put away the little children whom their anxious mothers brought to him, Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven," by which he taught, as John Newton very properly says, that such as these made up a very great part of the kingdom of heaven. And when we consider that upon the best statistics it is calculated that more than one third of the human race die in infancy, and probably if we take into calculation those districts where infanticide prevails, as in heathen countries, such as China and the like, perhaps one half of the population of the world die before they reach adult years,—the saying of the Savior derives great force indeed," Of such is the kingdom of heaven." If some remind me that the kingdom of heaven means the dispensation of grace on earth, I answer, yes, it does, and it means the same dispensation in heaven too, for while part of the kingdom of heaven is on earth in the Church, since the Church is always one, that other part of the Church which is above is also the kingdom of heaven. We know this text is constantly used as a proof of baptism, but in the first place, Christ did not baptize them, for "Jesus Christ baptized not;" in the second place, his disciples did not baptize them, for they withstood their coming, and would have driven them away. Then if Jesus did not, and his disciple did not, who did,' It has no more to do with baptism than with circumcision. There is not the slightest allusion to baptism in the text, or in the context; and I can prove the circumcision of infants from it with quite as fair logic as others attempt to prove infant baptism. However, it does prove this, that infants compose a great part of the family of Christ, and that Jesus Christ is known to have had a love and amiableness towards the little ones. When they shouted in the temple, "Hosanna!" did he rebuke them? No; but rejoiced in their boyish shouts. "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hath God ordained strength," and does not that text seem to say that in heaven there shall be "perfect praise" rendered to God by multitudes of cherubs who were here on earth—your little ones fondled in your bosom—and then suddenly snatched away to heaven. I could not believe it of Jesus, that he would say to little children, "Depart, ye accursed, into everlasting fire in hell!" I cannot conceive it possible of him as the loving and tender one, that when he shall sit to judge all nations, he should put the little ones on the left hand, and should banish them for ever from his presence. Could he address them, and say to them, "I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink, sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not? "How*"could"*they do it? And if the main reason of damnation lie in sins of omission like there which it was not possible for them to commit, for want of power to perform the duty how, then, shall he condemn and cast them away?"
    Surgeon

    I agree i don't believe in random with God.

    Does any here think that it is random?
     
  6. agedman

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    Because Christ now holds the keys over all life and death, and because God never moves without purpose or plan (and God is not still), then there is never a time "random" occurs.
     
  7. psalms109:31

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    We have one who is just a son of the devil with no hope and one who is created to be His. Since God did this for nothing they have done and it is God doing it, it isn't random between the two?
     
  8. matt wade

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    Calvinism = Random salvation
     
  9. mont974x4

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    No. Calvinism = God's Sovereign will at work.

    There is no such thing as random when God has chosen before the foundation of the World.
     
  10. Ruiz

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    This argument borders, if not trespasses, on the absurd. If God does anything, by definition it is not random. It may not make sense to us, but it is still not random. A paradox in logic is not random, but merely out of our complete comprehension.

    To argue against things being random is fine by me, no Christian should think salvation is random. However, no one should think that because we don't understand mean it is random.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    My own personal opinion is that this passage of Scripture is sadly misused, particularly in most Baptist Churches.

    Consider the passage with some context:

    Matthew 19:13-15
    13. Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
    14. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
    15. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.


    The disciples of Jesus Christ were preventing the "little children" who were brought to Him so that he should put his hands on them, and pray. Jesus Christ said, in effect: Let them alone, let them come.

    But is that the practice in most Baptist Churches? NO! They say before they can come they must "Believe". I have seen children as young as 4 years of age presented for Church membership. I refuse to believe that these children are lost or that they know what they are doing. I recall that some years ago, when Criswell was president of the SB Convention, he declared that he would no longer baptize children under 9 years of age. Frankly I believe that is too young.

    Given the passage above I believe that Jesus Christ is saying that "little children" need nothing to come to Him. After the tsunami in Southeast Asia Dr. Albert Mohler wrote an article concerning the destiny of the children who died. It is worth reading.

    The Salvation of the 'Little Ones':
    Do Infants who Die Go to Heaven?

    http://www.covenantnews.com/mohler050117.htm
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    "Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days. You never heard its declaration of faith—it was not capable of such a thing—it was not baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ, not buried with him in baptism; it was not capable of giving that "answer of a good conscience towards God;" nevertheless, you may rest assured that it is well with the child, well in a higher and a better sense than it is well with yourselves; well without limitation, well without exception, well infinitely, "well" eternally. Perhaps you will say, "What reasons have we for believing that it is well with the child?" Before I enter upon that I would make one observation. It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. Those who make the accusation know that their charge is false. I cannot even dare to hope, though I would wish to do so, that they ignorantly misrepresent us. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true. In Calvin's advice to Omit, he interprets the second commandment "shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me," as referring to generations, and hence he seems to teach that infants who have had pious ancestors, no matter how remotely, dying as infants are saved. This would certainly take in the whole race. As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest. We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, "You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush." We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God.
    First, then, this morning, I shall endeavor to explain the way in which we believed infants are saved; secondly, give reasons for do believing; and then, thirdly, seek to bring out a practical use of the subject.
    I. First of all, THE WAY IN WHICH WE BELIEVE INFANTS TO BE SAVED.
    Some ground the idea of the eternal blessedness of the infant upon its innocence. We do no such thing; we believe that the infant fell in the first Adam, "for in Adam all died." All Adam's posterity, whether infant or adult, were represented by him—he stood for them all, and when he fell, he fell for them all. There was no exception made at all in the covenant of works made with Adam as to infants dying; and inasmuch as they were included in Adam, though they have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, they have original guilt. They are "born in sin and steepen in iniquity; in sin do their mothers conceive them;" so saith David of himself, and (by inference) of the whole human race. If they be saved, we believe it is not because of any natural innocence. They enter heaven by the very same way that we do; they are receives in the name of Christ. "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid," and I do not think nor dream that there is a different foundation for the infant than that which is laid for the adult. And equally is it far from our minds to believe that infants go to heaven through baptism—not to say, in the first place, that we believe infant sprinkling to be a human and carnal invention, an addition to the Word of God, and therefore wicked and injurious. When we reflect that it is rendered into some thing worse than superstition by being accompanied with falsehood, when children are taught that in their baptism they are made the children of God, and inheritors of the kingdom of heaven, which is as base a lie as ever was forged in hell, or uttered beneath the copes of heaven, our spirit sinks at the fearful errors which have crept into the Church, through the one little door of infant sprinkling. No; children are not saved because they are baptized, for if so, the Puseyite is quite right in refusing to bury our little children if they die unbaptized. Yes, the barbarian is quite right in driving the parent, as he does to this day, from the church yard of his own national Church, and telling him that his child may rot above-ground, and that it shall not be buried except it be at the dead of night, because the superstitious drops have never fallen on its brow. He is right enough if that baptism made the child a Christian, and if that child could not be saved without it. But a thing so revolting to feeling, is at once to be eschewed by Christian men. The child is saved, if snatched away by death as we are, on another ground than that of rites and ceremonies, and the will of man.
    On what ground, then, do we believe the child to be saved? We believe it to be as lost on the rest of mankind, and as truly condemned by the sentence which said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It is saved because it is elect. In the compass of election, in the Lamb's Book of Life, we believe there shall be found written millions of souls who are only shown on earth, and then stretch their wings for heaven. They are saved, too, because they were redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. He who shed his blood for all his people, bought them with the same price with which he redeemed their parents, and therefore are they saved because Christ was sponsor for them, and suffered in their room and stead. They are saved, again not without regeneration, for, "except a man"—the text does not mean an adult man but a person, a being of the human race—"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." No doubt, in some mysterious manner the Spirit of God regenerates the infant soul, and it enters into glory made meet to be a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light. That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the "rest which remaineth for the people of God." By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way. If we could not suppose that children could be saved in the same way as adults, if it would be necessary to suppose that God's justice must be infringe, or that his plan of salvation must be altered to suit their cases, then we should be in doubt; but we can see that with the same appliances, by the same plan, on precisely the same grounds, and through the same agencies, the infant soul can behold the Savior a face in glory everlasting, and therefore we are at ease upon the matter."

    C.H. Spurgeon
     
  13. freeatlast

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  14. psalms109:31

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    I don't think we should blanket all Calvinist this way. It may seem that way to those who don't completely understand, but they don't think it is random.
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Matthew 19:
    The Little Children and Jesus
    13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

    14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.


    It is about humbleness as a child and it is also about stopping people from humbling themselves before Him and to let them come and not to hinder them from coming in context right?

    That even in death God takes them in infancy we can bring our infants to Jesus and be assured they are safe with Him and they can get along with their life in Christ.
     
    #15 psalms109:31, Jan 28, 2012
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  16. psalms109:31

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    Thank you, I enjoyed the link to.
     

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