Random endtime thoughts,questions

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In a closed thread I was attempting to respond to Thomas 15 questions...feel free to jump in and ramble around on end times as you feel like,or not..
    Thomas thanks for your response and questions. I will offer a bit on it...there are many here who could jump in and help.

    Thomas remeber that the kingdom and true church are seperate in scripture.The true church exists at the same time ,and alongside the kingdom.
    Within the realm of the Kingdom you have good seed and bad seed!

    The Roman church had become dominant ,but actually had departed so much from biblical teaching that God raised up the reformers to point believers back to truth and away from corrupt religion.
    Many true christians were put to death by both the roman church,and some of the reformers themselves,who still had some error also.:thumbs:


    1]medieval "church" as part of the Kingdom....

    Let both grow together until the harvest.....

    wheat /tares, good fish /bad fish, sheep /goat.....

    Thomas remember at the last day angelic beings are going to gather out of the kingdom "all things that offend....agreed????



    note...to those who resist....you might want to be identified with the "elect sheep" on that day....many of us believe you should identify yourself as such now.

    2] the seven "churches' in rev2-3.....
    Thomas...I have a very strong local church view...and as a Baptist I believe in regenerate church membership.

    In every true church where sheep gather......there are others.......who come in among the true church. in other words...
    The Holy Spirit places believers in the body by new birth....
    .others
    place themselves among the body..in the strength of their own flesh
    These others have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

    In the letters to the seven churches you will notice it is the overcomers{elect}
    who persevere by the grace of God,remain faithful to the end.
    These OTHERS...are called in scripture...false brethren, spots in your love feasts,hypocrites, goats ,tares ,etc.

    The letters to the seven churches were actual churches that existed at that time. We can learn from these letters today.
    I believe however that the idea that these churches describe ages of the church is false...yet many teach it this way,because they fail to see partial preterism.....so they will say either these are ages....one after another, or they will say that these type of churches exist throughout times.


    for example....some might say we are living in the laodicean period,,,

    to apply lessons to use by way of application is one thing..to say this is a secret blueprint of 7 ages is horrendous error.:wavey:[/QUOTE]
     
  2. thomas15

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    The Bible teaches that when Jesus returns and set up his glorious kingdom, he will rule with an iron scepter and satan will be bound for 1000 years. This in contrast to the 1000 years of medieval kingdom where the Word of God was hidden from view. While I agree that there is a probably a reminant of true believers from 590 to 1517 AD, it is a real streach to make them into the glorious kingdom of Christ that grows over time, the truth of the matter is the number of actual true believers probably decreased during that time due to a lack of the Word of Truth.

    It is hard for me to see the kingdom of Christ and the Church as one and the same. For that to be the case, the actual church from 33AD to 70AD would have to be outside of the kingdom. Since most of the Apsotles were dead by AD 70, Jesus was in error when he stated that many would see the kingdom and none of them would rule and reign over the 12 tribes of Israel as promised. The judgements in Revelation do not specify just the Jews, infact they imply that the whole world will be judged. History does not record such a judgement.

    But let us not forget the seminal question: How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy?
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Thomas,
    1]where do you see that the kingdom reign has to be on the earth? why can it not be from the throne in heaven as acts 2:30 indicates?

    because there was a decline for a period of time, does not mean overall that the kingdom is not pressing forward.

    for years we were told that russia was totally communistic anti God....but now we know that God had a growing church there underground, like in China now.

    2] Think of the kingdom.....being each seperate christian in the world among the wheat.......when these individuals come together as the church assembled, that is the distinction.

    There are marks of true churches of Christ that must be present ...for it to be the church.

     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Thomas
    No error....this is what Jesus meant when he said..there are some standing here ,who will not see death ,until you see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom........the coming was a coming in judgement....they saw it....that was the sign of the Son of Man in heaven exercising His Kingly Dominion from the throne....the second coming will be bodily and literal.:type:
     
  5. thomas15

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    Jesus told us in John ch 14 that he is going to the father to prepare a place for us and then he is going to come again to receive us so that we can live with him forever.

    He hasn't received us yet so he has not come again yet so he is busy preparing a place for us in the Father's house. That is what the Bible says.

    QUESTION: How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy?
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    Well we are not yet in the eternal state, although we do have eternal life now...yes Jesus taught that...if you notice in a previous post Jesus identifies
    the judgement of the last day,when the sheep enter that which the father prepared.

    The kingdom reign is from the throne in heaven now.....


    Again...the second coming has not happened yet,the coming in judgement did happen in 70ad.

    Partial preterists understand by dire4ct apostolic quotes,and direct quotes by Jesus which things are metephoric, literal, parabolic, similes,narrative
     
  7. thomas15

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    John 1:1 employs a specific figure of speech. What is it called and give another example of it in Scripture.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    it is a kind of parallelism like in the proverbs,and psalms



     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Thomas...I saw this today on facebook from American Vision;



    Filed under Apologetics, Articles, Bible Prophecy{11 comments}


    There are lots of things that people believe the Bible teaches that just aren’t there. I have developed a Bible test that makes this point. Here’s one of them: Did Noah’s ark land on Mt. Ararat? The answer is no. The ark came to rest on the mountains (plural) of Ararat (Gen. 8:4). There are other “that’s not in the Bible” beliefs, and many have to do with Bible prophecy. Ask a prophecy student to define “antichrist” (2 John 7), and then ask which book of the Bible uses the term more than any other book. If you said the book of Revelation, you would be wrong. The word does not appear in the most prophetic book in the Bible.

    So many Christians have their faith wrapped in the cozy blanket of Bible prophecy that they feel doctrinally exposed when their beliefs on the subject are challenged. We should not fear believing what the Bible actually teaches, but we should fear believing what the Bible does not teach.

    In a previous article I responded to some comments made by prophecy writer Dave Hunt in his answer to a question that appeared on his Berean Call website. He is critical of a preterist[1] interpretation of Bible prophecy. In attempt to discredit the preterist interpretation of Bible prophecy, Mr. Hunt asks, then “When did [Jesus] begin to reign over the world from Jerusalem?” Since we don’t see Jesus reigning on the earth from Jerusalem, then this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.


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    Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus will reign over the world from Jerusalem? Premillennialists would point to Revelation 20. In a debate that Gary North and I had with Dave Hunt and Thomas Ice in 1988, I asked Mr. Hunt where in Revelation 20 does it state that Jesus will reign on the earth for a thousand years. He was silent. He could not tell me. Later in the debate, his debating partner Thomas Ice answered for Mr. Hunt. Here’s what he said:

    Gary, Dave said I could tell you the Scripture. It’s Revelation 20:6: “Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over them the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

    Notice that my question specifically asked where in Revelation 20 does it say Jesus will reign on earth during this period of time. There is no mention of Jesus being on earth in Revelation 20.

    There’s a more fundamental question. Does Jesus have to be physically present to rule the world? It’s interesting that many dispensationalists claim that Satan is ruling over the world at this very moment. Where is his throne? If it’s possible for Satan to rule over this world without having a physical throne and an earthly physical presence, then certainly Jesus has similar power and authority.

    Satan may have had the kingdoms of the world at one time (Matt. 4:1–10; Luke 4:1–13), but not any longer. We’re told by Jesus, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt. 28:18–20). With these verses in mind, if Jesus is not reigning over the world, then who is?

    Dispensationalists claim that Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem while He is sitting on David’s throne. We know this, dispensationalists tell us, because that’s what the “millennium” is all about in Revelation 20. This chapter does not say Jesus will reign on the earth or sit on David’s throne. Furthermore, Revelation 20 is not describing a “millennium” or “millennialism,” as the terms are usually understood, that is, a Golden Age of universal peace. Even the dispensational version of the “millennium” won’t be all “sweetness and light” since Jesus is said to rule with a “rod of iron” (Rev. 19:15).

    Those who reign with Jesus during this period were martyred (Rev. 20:4), like so many Old Testament saints (Heb. 11:26–40) and early New Testament believers (Acts 7:54–60; 12:2). Revelation 20:4 is the answer to the martyred saints in Revelation 6:9–11 who ask “how long . . . wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the land?” This means that Revelation 20 is describing what was going on in John’s day (1:1, 3; 22:10). John described himself as a “fellow partaker in the tribulation” (1:9). These souls “had been judicially killed: decapitation was a standard form of capital punishment, well known in the Roman Empire (cf. Mt. 14:10). Significantly, this imagery fits all the preceding story of Revelation, where the Roman beast and the Jerusalem harlot are drunk on the blood of the saints (Rev. 13:7; 17:6).”[2]

    The framework of Revelation 20 is similar to what we read in Hebrews 12, a follow-up to the previous chapter: “Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God” (Heb. 12:1–2). Instead of waiting for some final eschatological kingdom event, the writer of Hebrews told his first-century readers to run the race because Jesus accomplished what He came into the world to accomplish. There is no parenthesis, gap, or Plan B. Jesus said, “It has been accomplished” (John 19:30).

    There is no need for an earthly throne for Jesus. Jesus’ throne is in heaven: “Thus says the Lord, ‘Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me?’” (Isa. 66:1; Acts 7:49). Jesus occupies David’s throne in heaven (Acts 2:29–36). Looking at Hebrews 12:2 again, we find that Jesus “sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Everything a dispensationalist like Mr. Hunt claims has not happened the Bible says nothing about or has already taken place. Any view that discounts these truths and relegates the kingship of Jesus to another time or place is little different from Deism.

    Hunt continues to ask questions about what the Bible says about what he claims is unfulfilled Bible prophecy: “Did those who had pierced Him look upon and recognize Him as their Messiah; weep and mourn and believe on Him?”
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    pt2
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    The simple answer is “yes.” The above unreferenced passage by Mr. Hunt is taken from Zechariah 12:10: “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.” We know from John 19:36–37 that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled in Jesus day:

    “For these things came to pass, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, ‘Not a bone of Him shall be broken.’ And again another Scripture says, ‘They shall look on Him Whom They pierced.’”

    Those who pierced Jesus were the ones who looked on Him. The editors of the LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible are correct when they write that “this act fulfills Zechariah 12:10, which says, ‘They shall look upon me whom they have pierced’ (cf. Rev. 1:7).”[3] Of course, they are agreeing with what John makes abundantly clear. But if the events of Zechariah 12:1–9 were fulfilled during the time when the events in Esther took place, then why a gap of nearly 500 years before the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?

    F. W. Farrar argues that Zechariah 12:10 “was a striking type and foreshadowing of the death of the King of Martyrs, the Son of God, and of the remorse which pierced to the heart those who had slain Him (Acts ii. 37; vii. 54).”[4] If this is true, then we should look for a more immediate historical setting that would establish the “piercing” as a type of the piercing of Christ on the cross (John 19:37).

    By viewing Zechariah 12:10 as type of piercing that is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus, the way supplying a ram in the place of Isaac was a type of Christ, the historical cohesion of the chapter is maintained. In fact, we see something similar in the life of David. Psalm 22 is first David’s cry of anguish, even though it is filled with obvious Messianic elements that ultimately find their fulfillment in the redemptive work of Jesus.

    Gerard Van Groningen, in his masterful work on the messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, writes that “the experiences recorded [in Psalm 22] are in keeping with David’s historical pilgrimage to the throne and his actual sitting on it. The poetic symbols reflect a Davidic awareness of life in the open country. And the perception of the relationship between God and the king, even in times of suffering, is clearly present. . . . As he functions as a prophet, serves as a priest, and reigns as the anointed royal one, David is a messianic type in the fullest meaning of that concept. What he was, experienced, and proclaimed in his day was directly related to what his offspring would be, have, and do in the fullness of time.”[5]

    Zechariah 12:10 could be read in a similar way. While some historical person may be in view, it’s more likely that something more striking is being described. Notice who is pierced: “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” (12:10). Who is the “Me”? It’s Jehovah. How is this possible? Physically, prior to the incarnation, it isn’t. The piercing is metaphorical and typological, as Homer Hailey argues: “They could not pierce Jehovah in the sense of putting Him to death; but they pierced Him through insult, blasphemy, and rejection.”[6] The use of “pierce” in this way is not uncharacteristic of the Bible. It’s said of Mary, the mother of Jesus: “and a sword will pierce even your own soul” (Luke 2:35). In Hebrews 4:12 we read: “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” In these cases, the piercing is being used “metaphorically.”[7]The same is probably true in Zechariah 12:10. R. T. France comments:

    And in the overall pattern of Zech 9–14 this “one they have pierced” is usually interpreted as a rejected messianic figure, who appears also as the rejected shepherd in Zech 11:4–14 and the shepherd killed by the sword in Zech 13:7–9. In this gospel [i.e., Matthew] both of those latter passages will be applied to Jesus’ death in Jerusalem (see 26:32; 27:9–10), and the present allusion should therefore probably be taken in the same way. Jesus’ words here suggest then, in the light of their OT background, that the people of Jerusalem will recognize what they have done to their Messiah, but their mourning will be prompted by seeing his eventual vindication and triumph, when it will be too late to avert the consequences of having rejected him.[8]

    It was the “piercing” of Jehovah that sent the residents of Israel and Judah into exile. It was only after recognizing their grave sin that they called out for mercy and were redeemed. The type is fulfilled in the piercing of Jesus and the call for mercy and the granting of grace that followed. This is why “in John 19:37 the verse is given an interpretive paraphrase: They shall look on Him. John has made an application of the prophecy in the light of the fulfillment (as far as the piercing is concerned) to Jesus. John knew that in its Old Testament context the first person was used, and that the pronoun referred to Yahweh.”[9] Consider Calvin’s wise and perceptive comments on John 19:37:

    They shall look on him whom they pierced. This passage is violently tortured by those who endeavour to explain it literally as referring to Christ. Nor is this the purpose for which the Evangelist quotes it, but rather to show that Christ is that God who formerly complained, by Zechariah, that the Jews had pierced his heart (Zech. xii.10). Now, God speaks there after the manner of men, declaring that He is wounded by the sins of his people, and especially by their obstinate contempt of his word, in the same manner as a mortal man receives a deadly wound, when his heart is pierced; as he says, elsewhere, that his Spirit was deeply grieved [Matt. 26:38 and Isa. 63:10]. Now, as Christ is God manifested in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16), John says that in his visible flesh was plainly accomplished what his Divine Majesty had endured from the Jews, so far as it was capable of enduring;. . . What was done by the hand of a Roman soldier the Evangelist John justly imputes to the Jews; as they are elsewhere said to have crucified the Son of God, (Acts ii. 36,) though they did not lay a finger on his body.[10]

    Mr. Hunt asks whether those who had pierced Jesus looked upon and recognize Him as their Messiah. Did they weep and mourn and believe on Him? They sure did. First, at Pentecost “there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). Second, Peter accuses them of nailing (piercing) Jesus “to a cross” and putting Him “to death” (Acts 2:23). Third, those who were accused of nailing Jesus to a cross cried out in obvious repentance: “Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‘Brethren, what shall we do?’” (2:37). Fourth, 3000 souls repented and believed in Jesus as the promised Messiah (2:38–47). What else is necessary for Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:36–37 to be fulfilled?
     
  11. thomas15

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    QUESTION:
    How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy?

    ANSWER:
    Follow-up Question:
    Iconoclast, do you understand the question or shall I re-word it?
     
  12. thomas15

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    Climax

    In
    the beginning
    was
    the Word,
    and
    the Word
    was
    with God,
    and
    the Word
    was
    God.
    He
    was
    with God
    in
    the beginning.
     
  13. thomas15

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    FYI, I don't care for Gary DeMar's methods of Bible interpretation so your cut and paste efforts are useless as far as I'm concerned.
     
  14. percho

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    I wish I could be there at the truck stop with Ya'll. Ha.
     
  15. percho

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    Iconoclast

    I was reading what you said about Psalm 22. Of course you can see the same thing in, Thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol, David was speaking as a prophet of Christ not of himself.

    Do we have the liberty to look at all of David's writing in this manner even if it isn't stated as it is written or something like that. In other words can we look at let's say Psalm 51 as prophetic of Christ in lieu of about David.

    I ask this because I am not for sure even though it may cause us to have to re-look at our understanding of the Christ. Or should our understanding of the Christ be chiseled in stone because 2000 years have pass and we should know all we are to know?

    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    QUOTE=percho;1729547]Iconoclast

    I was reading what you said about Psalm 22. Of course you can see the same thing in, Thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol, David was speaking as a prophet of Christ not of himself.

    Do we have the liberty to look at all of David's writing in this manner even if it isn't stated as it is written or something like that. In other words can we look at let's say Psalm 51 as prophetic of Christ in lieu of about David.

    I ask this because I am not for sure even though it may cause us to have to re-look at our understanding of the Christ. Or should our understanding of the Christ be chiseled in stone because 2000 years have pass and we should know all we are to know?

    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.[/QUOTE]

    Percho,
    I am in Wisconsin now,till thursday, deliver at pm at target warehouse...what state are you in?lol....I pass thru all of them!

    An exciting portion of scripture is in LK 24;

    and later in the chapter;
    Jesus taught that the whole OT was basically about Him.....So we know when the apostles give us direct quotes with explanation of them.

    it is a good study to see how many OT sections are opened up for us,in the NT. Keep in mind a few cautions forever.
    All of the OT types,were tainted by sin and error,and some weakness.

    We say Moses, or David were types of Christ, yet we see sin in their lives...so we know they were incomplete types! You cannot push types beyond what they were designed for!

    Jesus is perfect, so anyone who suggests He is in any way less is teaching falsehood. This is why sometimes God has given pastors and teachers to the church as gifts to help us see more of Jesus.
    Do not desrise teachers who God has given.....consider what they say,and the Lord give thee understanding .
     
  17. Robert Snow

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    The only way Preterism works is by using literary gymnastics and ignoring the plain teaching of the scripture.
     
    #17 Robert Snow, Sep 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2011
  18. Iconoclast

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    Robert,
    it is easy to make that statement but can you defend your view against a partial preterist? Gary Demar or Ken Gentry would eat your lunch in a debate, unless you were well prepared.
    For example how would you respond to that small quote i offered to thomas in post ...which part is not straight forward?
    Robert...I am not settled on my endtime position,except for that I see Jesus returning on the last day.
     
  19. percho

    percho
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    Percho,
    I am in Wisconsin now,till thursday, deliver at pm at target warehouse...what state are you in?lol....I pass thru all of them!

    An exciting portion of scripture is in LK 24;



    and later in the chapter;


    Jesus taught that the whole OT was basically about Him.....So we know when the apostles give us direct quotes with explanation of them.

    it is a good study to see how many OT sections are opened up for us,in the NT. Keep in mind a few cautions forever.
    All of the OT types,were tainted by sin and error,and some weakness.

    We say Moses, or David were types of Christ, yet we see sin in their lives...so we know they were incomplete types! You cannot push types beyond what they were designed for!

    Jesus is perfect, so anyone who suggests He is in any way less is teaching falsehood. This is why sometimes God has given pastors and teachers to the church as gifts to help us see more of Jesus.
    Do not desrise teachers who God has given.....consider what they say,and the Lord give thee understanding .[/QUOTE]



    Mississippi

    I agree. Jesus was without sin therefore if it were a passage concerning sin I do not believe it could pertain to Jesus.

    By the same token I do not believe anything or anyone subject to corruption could be found in the kingdom of God nor in heaven assuming those two to be different. Therefore being this is said of the resurrected Jesus the Christ, "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    Would Jesus the Christ who came through water and blood, in the flesh having come, subject to and for the purpose of death have been construed as imperfect yet without spot or blemish?

    Was it necessary for him to be resurrected in a more perfect/complete state than he who died and was buried in order for we to receive salvation through him?

    Now consider Psalm 139 a psalm of David. Is it about David or Jesus the Christ. Read it all but I am going to copy and paste a little with comments ( ).

    V 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. (The very soul of him) 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully, wonderfully made: marvellous thy works; and my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (three days and three nights in the heart of the earth) 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;(until resurrected perfect) and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. (the balance being the church which could not be until after after Jesus became the beginning the firstborn from the dead yet even then she was in him)

    Does this not add understanding to verses like Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; And even 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
     

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