Ray Comfort teaches xxxxxxxxx

And YOU have grossly characterized the Lordship Position, and have created a caricature in your own mind as to what it entails.

(Actually, I did not "caricature" anything, I pulled the info straight from Charles Stanley...a "free" (meaningless) grace proponent)

 

If this is your understanding, perhaps you should present it as "you must desire to turn from sin," rather than telling people to actually "turn from sin." The former sounds like a goal, the latter a definitive action, i.e. works. I ask you to re-read your first statement in your post and ask yourself if you have turned from the sin of pride. I am fascinated by the reliance of Lordship advocates on John Macarthur, quoting his teaching as if it has inherent authority.

I recognize that you are in evangelism, and I salute you for answering God's call. I have a sincere question for you - how do lost people respond when you tell them to turn from all of their sin? Do they still seem interested in the Gospel at that point? In my view, such presentations can cause a seeking man to give up on God altogether. He hears such a perfectionistic presentation, and he realizes, "I can't turn from everything in my life, it's impossible." He then hardens his heart and gives up on ever being saved.

I realize you disagree, and I respect your viewpoint and your sincerity. However, I just ask you to consider what the lost man hears in your presentation.

 

Lordship salvation is the biblical model of salvation. You cannot claim to believe in Christ and not have Him be your Lord also.

Jesus is not some "get out of hell free" gimmick. To say that Jesus can be your savior but does not have to also be your Lord is to completely and totally misunderstand the Gospel.

Now, I am not arguing that works of repentance are done before salvation or in order to receive salvation. However, the works of repentance are a necessary result of our salvation. Paul writes:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
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Notice that Paul says "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom..." The word "unrighteous" is referring to people who do wrong according to God's laws. The list of unrighteous deeds that follow show this is referring to the doing of things that are against God's law.

Also notice that Paul, when addressing the "Christians" at the church in Corinth he says "such were some of you." Since Paul uses past tense "were" it is clear that they are not that way now. Does that mean the Christians in Corinth didn't sin? No. But it means that their lives are not identified by the sins they once were known by. So, the homosexual, though he or she may struggle with that sin or the idolater or thief who may struggle with their former sin are not to be defined by that sin.

It is clear that the Corinthian Christians had a change in their behavior because they had been saved. In other words, it was not OK for them to continue in sin.

Paul returns to this theme in Ephesians:

17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4:17-24)
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As can be plainly seen there is a distinction between "walking as the Gentiles" to be understood as a metaphor for non-believers and the life of a Christian. The pre-Christian life is marked by callousness, sensuality, and greed to practice every kind of impurity. Notice, though, it is not OK with Paul for that to mark the life of a Christian. He says "that is not the way you learned Christ." In other words, it is not OK to continue in the sin(s) that marked your life before Christ. This is the meaning of Paul's exhortation to "put off your old self."

There is no doubt that Paul is intending to say exactly that there must be a marked change in the life of a believer after coming to Christ. In Colossians 3, Paul explains:

3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.


5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.


12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (Colossians 3:1-17)

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Notice the exhortations: "Put to death sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness," and "put on--as God's chosen ones--compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another, forgiveness, and love. So, then, it is not OK to continue in sin. Sin marks the life of a non-believer and righteousness is to mark the life of the believer.

There can be no doubt that when Jesus is your Savior He must also be your Lord and we must do "all that [Jesus has] commanded [us] (Matthew 28:20).

To say that Jesus can be your Savior and, because of that, you can live in the same manner as you did before becoming a Christian is anathema to true Christianity. Jesus must be both Savior and Lord. This tired and worn-out cliche is true: "Jesus is Lord of all in your life or He is not Lord at all in your life."

To claim, as some of you do, that Jesus being your Lord is not necessary to the Christian life is to misunderstand the Gospel. To live in such a manner so as to unashamedly commit the sins and lead the sinful life of someone who looks like a non-believer is cheapen Christ's sacrifice and to shake your fist in God's face and to invite His eternal wrath in Hell.

The Archangel

 

The above bolded is essentially what Lordship Salvation is, works of repentance to receive salvation, or as MacArthur more aptly states, and exchange of one for another.

 

I guess I am just confused. Didn't John the Baptist and Jesus preach repentance? IF that is the case then how can there be a dispute about its importance in being saved?

 

Jesus must also be Lord. His Lordship comes as a result of salvation. Call it what you will, but if Jesus is not Lord, one proves himself or herself unsaved.

The Archangel

 

On that we agree. I don't think that is the matter at hand, though. MacArthur is on record stating Lordship Salvation is an exchange of the world for salvation. That ceases to be a gift, is anti-grace, and unbiblical.

 

On this issue you beat around semantical details much like the Reformed folks do.

 

You tell me...if I exchange A for B, is B a gift? Simple yes or no answer will do.

 

I agree with Ann, to repent means to turn from trusting or relying upon our own righteousness to save us, to trusting completely on Jesus alone.

Once we are saved I believe our attitude should be one of obedience, but never trusting in our works. We are simply doing what is our duty to do.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

I don't think MacArthur is meaning what you (and others) think he means.

Is there an exchange of sorts? Sure. We exchange sin for righteousness. But, that exchange is a result of God's work of regeneration/salvation in us.

Remember, MacArthur is a Calvinist (a weird one, but a Calvinist nonetheless). As such, the "exchange" he is talking about necessarily would follow God's regenerating work. So, for MacArthur, the "exchange" is a result of salvation, not a bargain for it.

The Archangel

 

Usually this topic brings so much heat and so little light.

I have bounced from anti LS to LS to back and so forth.

What finally helped me was realizing there is SOME truth in both sides, and some mix up.

Free gracers do not ALL teach that you can get saved and just happily go on sinning. That is misrepresenting them.

Most of them get this much right: even our "righteous acts" are filthy rags in God's sight. There is nothing--repeat nothing--we can DO to earn salvation. Cleaning up your act and turning from DOING your sins are WORKS, and they don't earn justification.

So, yes, free gracers get justification right in my opinion, and Comfort and MacArthur get it wrong.

But there is more to salvation than just justification. There is also sanctification.....again, something God, not we, do. The truly justified person will be a new person--regenerated--redeemed--and yes, changed. Not perfect. Not instantly mature, knowing and doing everything right. But there will be growth. It may be tiny. It may be inconsistent. But it will be there.

So the LS folks are right in that if you meet someone claiming to have walked with the Lord a long time and still HAPPILY sinning, they may not be saved. But note I said HAPPILY. I must confess the Lord and I are still working on some things that I slip and say or do or think that are plain knuckleheaded wrong. But the key is not only is He not happy with that, neither am I. And together we are working on them.

So put me down free grace, with expectation of sanctification following throughout life til we reach glorification in Gloryland.

The only part of the debate that torques me is when you run across person A who wants to judge the salvation of person B because they don't see enough sanctification fast enough, or to their personal standards.

Or use the term "cheap grace." Believe me, anything that cost Jesus the suffering and death He did is not CHEAP. Cheap is plastic stuff from China. What Jesus did was quality, and of infinite worth.

Maybe we can come up with a new term. If you are of the LS stream, how does "taken for granted grace" or some such strike you?

 

IMHO it only seems natural that the moment a person places their trust and faith in Christ as their saviour they would also recognize and hate their sin and desire completely to turn from them.

I don't understand how someone could be sincere and yet at the same time be thinking "I kind of like that one sin, I will keep doing just that one"? Or could they be sincere and believe that some of their sins are not really all that bad?

Isn't really all that Comfort is saying?

 

Good post.

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

I don't know about you all, but the above enforces my belief that there is change in one, brought about by the Spirit, even before coming to Christ.

 

People get to caught up in the timing of things. If you are a Christian then Christ is your Lord. Period If He is not then you are not. When all that comes together is irrelevant.

 

No sir, it is not AT ALL what the Lordship position teaches. Repentance is not a work at all: no physical activity whatsoever. It is nothing but a decision; a turning (of one's mind and heart) from sin and the world, TO Christ.

Good works come from true repentance, no doubt.

Please quit misconstruing the Lordship Position.

 

If making a decision is a work (saying "I don't want the world anymore, Jesus, I want you!"), then you are in serious trouble, Webdog, given your own position regarding saving faith.

You have to make up your mind: is a mental decision a work or not? If it is, it is in every instance. If it is not, then it is not in every instance.

 

It is about turning from a life in rebellion to God (eg sin)