Featured RC Sproul and Alcoholic Beverages

And I don't doubt for a second that Aaron believes his arguement . And further he believes that abstinence is the MO that is the correct way to address a weaker brother or sister and to some degree it is ..... however it is not the way to address it long term...ie its not cureitive.

One, even if you never take a drink in your life, the alcoholic will drink & probably avoid you if you don't drink.

Two, the alcoholic will somewhere in their life have to face the fact they have a tiger by the tail & that they are in fact alcoholics.

Three, seek help... you cant do it on your own. Yes you can not drink but you will just be a dry drunk...one that constantly wants to drink but is scared to. Your life requires balance & as a dry drunk, you aren't in balance. GOD, Family, Career, Health must be all in alignment--because that will give you prospective .

I am only posting this because ive lived with alcoholics all my 56 years ....I have developed coping mechanisms & helped others with theirs. If anyone wants to talk, please feel free to PM me.

God bless all

 

You've shown nothing but the fact that you have no case for what you purport.

You claim the weaker brother principle means that if there is out there anywhere a Christian who thinks it is a sin to drink alcohol that every Christian on EARTH ought not ever touch the stuff- period.

I contend that that is idiotic in the absolute highest degree. I contend that no one with half a brain could believe such nonsense.

And I ask you to clarify how the weaker brother principle works- and you won't because you CAN'T.

That is ALL you have shown.

 

He's being sarcastic. Note the rolling eyes.

 

What exactly does 'LIGHT' mean in the name of this fruity booze?

Does it mean less alcohol so the drinker won't get as tipsy, or is it a diet version so she can keep her girlish figure?

 

More appropriately so he can keep his boyish figure. It astounds me that guys are shaving their chests & backs to accommodate the fairer sex. Drinking a Mikes Hard Lemonade is just as womanish in my eyes.

 

If that's the brothers premise Luke, then work to discredit it w/o the insults. It is my stance that by not drinking infront of someone might suppress an impulse but does a solutely nothing to arrest the problem.

 

We can have a war on "my scholar" against "your scholar." That would be a waste of time. There is plenty of good scholarship that would refute what you posted.

The driving force in the era of The Prohibition (1840-1920) were evangelical churches such as Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Congregational, who were all against the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages. They believed it was wrong. Among these many churches there was no dearth of scholarship. Look to your history. Who lived in this era? A great many of our scholars came from or lived during this era.
As they were the driving force against drink in that era, the anemic evangelical churches of today have allowed secularism to take over.

One of the main forces against alcoholism today is MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers). Alcohol is one of the leading contributing factors to motor vehicle accidents in North America. "Just one for the road," eh?
I am sure you have seen all the vivid commercials by those who have only had a "couple" of drinks; they weren't really drunk, but had just been drinking in a "socially accepted" manner.

It is not an exercise of liberty. It comes down to a proper understanding of Scripture. I have two or three books on "Bible Wines in Scripture" or "Wine in Ancient Times."
As well, I know from experience that in third world Muslim nations it is not difficult to preserve grape juice and other juices, even without refrigeration. A far more common cause of sickness is when families or a number of men try to make a still to brew their own wine. Almost every time there are many that get hospitalized and some that will die because it is not done properly. They are poisoned in the process. Using the "family still" is not a safe practice in a third world nation. It is far safer to make juice than it is to make alcohol, contrary to the thinking of many.

 

As stated before, I do not drink, but agree with your conclusions. The problem with those opposing you is they do not have a good grasp of the subject in Scripture. One cannot make a credible case for abstinence in the Bible. Their other misconception is that every human on earth is a weaker brother.

 

Fine...then it gets illegally imported from Canada, causing the mob to dip their filthy fingers in and causing murderer and mayhem in the streets. What a fine solution that was.

 

I never claimed that. Not once.

No, you threw down a bunch of red herrings in an attempt to marginalize what God has said is a very real issue. I will stick to the topic upon which Paul expounds in the Scriptures to avoid arguing over trifling and otherwise vain imaginations.

Think what you want.

 

Ummm...you did not see my emoticon after my statement? My rolling of the eyes? It was sarcasm.

P.S. I just saw Rick already pointed that out.

 

Yes. It would be a waste of time. We can line up scholars all day long, but they do not trump Scripture.

This is all anecdotal and lacks a scriptural mandate.

You could have saved yourself from wasting good vowels and consonants by just making this statement and nothing else. You and I agree on very little, so it comes as no surprise we disagree on this topic. I am convinced the Bible places it in the sphere of Christian liberty. You do not. We disagree and neither is going to be convinced otherwise. We have reached an impasse which is a common occurrence on this board.

 

And if I may be so bold...neither of you have addressed the root cause / causes of alcoholism nor the solution/ solutions to the problem. I can well tell which feels its a human tragedy while the other probably considers it maintainable / treatable.

 

Then be clear about what you're claiming. Stop squirming.

You say the reason we should not drink responsibly is the weaker brother principle.

An EXTREMELY simple question has been put to you for several pages now.

HOW DOES THE WEAKER BROTHER PRINCIPLE PROHIBIT RESPONSIBLE DRINKING???

If it is not that if one Christian on earth thinks its sin then no Christian on earth should ever touch it- then HOW does it prohibit it?


If you don't answer that EXTREMELY SIMPLE challenge, then you have no point.

I have to think what is plainly fact. Everybody who reads your posts in this thread thinks the same thing.

 

Prohibition was the one of the biggest, bloodiest legislative and enforcement failures in the history of the United States.

For 1800 years the church had no problem with responsible drinking. To this day, around the world it still does not.

But for a very brief period in the church in England and for about a hundred years in the church in America, Christians had no problem with it.

Baptists were drinkers for most of their history.

I would not cite one of the biggest American failures in history as proof that we ought to believed what those people believed.

 

I have already studied the history. What shall I say.
You are wrong. Those that caused bloodshed would have been those that longed for their drunkenness, no?

Again you are wrong, as I have demonstrated in previous posts.
The church has always had problems with alcohol. The church at Corinth did. Check 1Cor.11. Along with their drink, associated with the Lord's Table some were sick, weak, and some were killed by the hand of God. I would say that is a problem, wouldn't you?
In the history of the Baptists the common thread is a "peace-loving" people. You will find many that were pacifists and would not go to war, and many that condemned drink outright. Check your history; don't check it at the door.

The fastest growing religion in this world today is Islam. Islamic nations do not allow alcohol as a general rule. That refutes your statement "To this day around the world it still does not" (have a problem with responsible drinking). Clearly they do. It is banned in most of those nations. I have been there. There are no bars, pubs, or access to alcoholic beverages anywhere. You drink; you are thrown in jail.
There is evangelism done in those nations. There are Baptist churches. But they don't drink, and would never think of it for very obvious reasons.
No Christian, and I mean no Christian, has "rights."
When one becomes a Christian they forsake their rights and become a slave to Christ. You don't have the "right" to drink. You are a bond-slave to Christ.

Kings and priests were not permitted to drink in the OT. If you are looking for allegorical interpretation (which many here feast on), then the kings and priests of the NT shouldn't be drinking either.

What kind of Christians--Catholics and Anglicans?

I doubt your sources.

Most of the more conservative Baptist churches of today do not advocate drinking of any kind. For an example I will quote to you the pastor of one of the most oft quoted people on this board.

(John MacArthur, Pastoral Ministry, page 76)


But I can list dozens of churches that have the same standard as MacArthur. I already did earlier on--a covenant in the constitution where those that joined covenanted together not to drink. I know of others that do the same thing. It is common in conservative Baptist churches not to drink.

 

The problem was government overreach of power.

Some people rightly said that the government cannot tel us what to eat and drink because this is America.

After the government slaughtered hundreds of such people, the nation agreed with those people and rightly overturned this tremendous overreach of power.

Wrong. The Corinthian church had a problem wit alcohol abuse. You are coflating issues.

Wrong. I did not say every nation on earth and I did not say Muslims. Address what I ACTUALLY say, please.

Whole nations, like France, drink wine and beer like we drink sweet tea here in the South.

Christians in such nations do not have a problem with it.

If it were not for this ignorance hiccup in Christian history called "fundamentalism" almost no Christians would have a problem with it.

 

Ive never personally seen a Reformed Baptist Church that lists this as a condition. If they did, that would be a deal beaker for me