RC Sproul and Eschatology........

Preterist are divided into two groups, partial and full. The majority view is the partial preterist who believe most of the prophecies have been fulfilled in the events of AD70 and that AD70 was a coming of Christ but not the coming. They still hold to a future coming and physical resurrection of the dead. They would see the Olivet Discourse and much of Revelation being fulfilled in the events of AD70. Read most of the commentaries on Matthew 24 by scholars pre-1900 and you will see they treat the discourse in a preterist manner. Sproul, Spurgeon, Gill etc.. would hold to some or most of these views.

Full-preterist believe that the events of AD70 was the "second coming" and the focus of all eschatology.

Check out Sproul's "end of the age" study on the series I posted.

 

The continuing growth of the Kingdom and a non-ending Church Age:

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Beyond this, I don't know.

 

Till about 6 years ago, me either.

If you like to listen to sermons here is a guy I found several years ago while studying this topic:

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

When I first found him he was a partial preterist, if you go to the bottom of his sermon page you will find some great sermons on eschatology. I would check back ever so often to listen to any new sermons he had becuse I enjoyed his teaching. About 2 years later he had posted a new series on eschatology where he seemed to had moved to the full-preterist view. That series is called 'What are the Last Days". It is very interesting how and why he came to that view. I found similarities to my own study.

 

Amy you decide who is being truthful and who is not. "Pastor" is either intentionally decieving you or ignorant of what he says.



One can easily find the writings of scholars throught Church History. Here are some:


From the 1600's:

John Owen
"So upon or in the destruction of Jerusalem, Luke 21:27, the Son of man is said to 'come in a cloud, with power and great glory' - and they that escape in that desolation are said to 'stand before the Son of man, ver. 36

To all the way back to the earliest church Fathers:

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Eusebius​

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"--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)

Clement of Alexandria
"But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken.

Athanasius
"And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:231; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defence of His Flight [11])

Justin Martyr
CHAP. XLVII.--DESOLATION OF JUDAEA FORETOLD.
That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: "Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore."(6) And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: "Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein."(7) And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well."


Amy here is a great site where you can read what scholars of everyview throughout Church History have believed. See if "Pastor" Larry is telling you the truth.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html

 

I do not doubt a site that large that contains that many quotes and references a some errors in it.

 

Now as to why I asked questions:

I asked if you believed the reason James said the coming was near was because all the signs Jesus gave had been fulfilled. You said:

I wouldn't argue.

Jesus said:

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


The "all" encompasses everthing previous to verse 34.

Included in that was the parousia.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And the coming on the clouds:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Most dispies get around this by saying what the text really means is "the generation that sees these signs will see His coming". But you admit that the signs were already fulfilled by the time James wrote his words. In fact, your insistence that all the "at hand", "near" and "shortly" words mean immenency.

1. The words in question do not always refer to time spans. They often refer to imminency.


Well an event can't be immenent if there are still things to occur before the immenent event. Therefore if all the signs had been fulfilled and the generation that sees those signs would see the parousia then by your own words you defeat your own argument.

Now do you understand why I asked questions?.

I am prepared to show more of your inconsistancies from the questions I posed to you. From whether the NT writers knew what the time statments meant to the warnings of Jesus about false prophets and the statements of James and Peter. But I will not, I'm too tired. If you wish to continue just give the word, otherwise :wavey:


I will leave you with one of your statements I do agree with you on:

I am no expert on this topic. There is much that I need to learn.

 

Before I respond I need to clear up an assumption I have about your position that was based on something you wrote. So just to be clear, do you believe the rapture occurs then a 7 year tribulation followed by the Second Coming or do you believe the rapture and the Second Coming are simultaneous events?

 

PART 1

I agree, there is a debate and have never said otherwise. I also agree the view he holds is not the one most Christians hold. How could it be otherwise with the last two generations being brought up on The Late Great Planet Earth and Left Behind. See, I to am humble.

You read Hal Lindsey, I read Church historians.

Eusebius (You are aware of who Eusebius is?)
"If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange." - Book III, Chapter VII.
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men."

Clement of Alexandria 150-215
"But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ." And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken

Tertullian
"Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin." And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen

Ignatius
Seeing then that in the aforementioned persons I beheld your whole people in faith and embraced them, I advise you, be ye zealous to do all things in godly concord, the bishop presiding after the likeness of God and the presbyters after the likeness of the council of the Apostles, with the deacons also who are most dear to me, having been entrusted with the diaconate of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the worlds and appeared at the end of time."

Philip Schaff
"The destruction of Jerusalem would be a worthy theme for the genius of a Christian Homer. It has been called "the most soul-stirring of all ancient history." But there was no Jeremiah to sing the funeral dirge of the city of David and Solomon. The Apocalypse was already written, and had predicted that the heathen "shall tread the holy city under foot forty and two months."

Alfred Edersheim
"From the fig tree, under which on that spring afternoon they may have rested, they were to learn a parable. We can picture Christ taking one of its twigs, just as its softening tips were bursting into young leaf. Surely this meant that summer was nigh--not that it had actually come. The distinction is important; for it seems to prove that 'all these things' which were to indicate to them that 'it' was 'near, even at the doors,' and which were to be fulfilled ere 'this generation' had passed away, could not have referred to the last signs connected with the advent of Christ, but must apply to the previous prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Jewish commonwealth. This too is a very simple and satisfactory explanation of the words, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. If those words be taken as His answer to the question, When shall these things be? (v. 3), they are easy of interpretation; but if their application be postponed to the far off future they present much difficulty.

those who are not preterist see it as well:

John Wesley
"Josephus' History of the Jewsh War is the best commentary on this chapter (Matt. 24). It is a wonderful instance of God's providence, that he, an eyewitness, and one who lived and died a Jew, should, especially in so extraordinary a manner, be preserved, to transmit to us a collection of important facts, which so exactly illustrate this glorious prophecy, in almost every circumstance." (Explanatory Notes Upon the New Testament)

"This generation of men now living shall not pass till all these things be done - The expression implies that great part of that generation would be passed away, but not the whole. Just so it was; for the city and temple were destroyed thirty-nine or forty years after."

I agree, but one doesn't usully start a civil and graceful debate by insinutating the other is a Christ mocker and later a liar. Secondly the "gotcha" is pointing out the inconsistencies in the others position.

So in an absolute sense many did believe as Sproul.I would say fewer still believed what "most" believe today. Perhaps you can point out the numerous church Fathers who believed in a pre-trib rapture.

Evidently you know nothing of the kind of formal debates Sproul and others participate in. Weeks and months before debates, dozens of questions are exchanged between the participants so that each knows exactly what the other believes about every point the debate will cover. It's called preparation, so that when the debate begins time is not wasted by asking these "inane questions".

I wouldn't expect them to. Of course if you called them a liar and Christ-mockers their demeanor might change a little. Still pretending you took the high road, "Pastor"?

 

Part 2

Albert Barnes
The particular reference here seems not to be to the pagan who were the agents or actors in the scenes of tumult and persecutions, but to the Jews by whom they were led on, or who were the prime movers in the persecutions which they had endured. It is necessary to suppose that they were principally Jews who were the cause of the persecution which had been excited against them, in order to make the parallelism between the church there and the churches in Palestine exact.
In Palestine. the Jews persecuted the churches directly; out of Palestine, they did it by means of others. They were the real authors of it, as they were in Judea, but they usually accomplished it by producing an excitement among the pagan, and by the plea that the apostles were making war on civil institutions. This was the case in Thessalonica. "The Jews which believed not, moved with envy, set all the city on an uproar." "They drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, ‘Those that have turned the world up side down have come hither also;’" Act_17:5-6. The same thing occurred a short time after at Berea. "When the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also and stirred up the people;" Act_17:13; compare Act_14:2. "The unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil-affected against the brethren." "The Epistle, therefore, represents the case accurately as the history states it. It was the Jews always who set on foot the persecutions against the apostles and their followers;"

Relief from what? Relief from their persecution at the hands of the Jews, whether directly or indirectly. That was accomplished in the Jewish War.

Yet when I asked about 2 Thessaolonians 1 you said:

Dispies don't say the church is gone here.

So the Church will see this:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This happens before the rapture?

Believe it or not Jews lived in other places other than Jerusalem. Have you ever read Acts? Are you also aware the Jewish War was not limited to Jerusalem?

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes! Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.
Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.
In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."
Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/The_Anti-Rapture_Page/matt24.htm

Let me restate as I erred in my question with the wrong Temple. I was thinking of this Temple that dispies attribute to the anti-christ:
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I asked why Jesus or Paul never mentioned this Millennial Temple, you said:

It is the Ezekiel temple. But why would it be mentioned to the church? It is during the kingdom that the temple will exist again,

In giving your answer you indicate the reason for not mentioning the Temple is because it has no bearing on the Church.

I asked you again:

Quote:
So the answer is NO. The NT writers don't mention this Temple.

You answered again, (you seem to hedge your bets on whether Jesus or Paul ever teaches of this Temple, a simple yes or no would work)

I didn't say that, but why would they? The temple would have no relevance for the church.

The point is, the reason for not mentioning the Temple is because it as no relevance to the Church. Then I asked you this:

Quote:
Why is the Man of sin and the "Anti-Christ" mentioned to the Church???

You answered this:
Because Paul was telling them about things to come.


So I am left to wonder,since I can't get a straight answer:
Does this mean, by your logic, that the man of sin and anti-christ is relevant to the church since Paul taught of this? Secondly, if he taught of them because as you say "he was telling of things to come", why didn't he teach of this coming Temple as well?

Great question!!! Why are there sin offerings on this MK Temple? How do you say the sin offerings are different from the sin offerings found under the Old Covenenat:
Lev 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Can you provide ANY reference in Eze. where the sin offerings are for a memorial? Let me answer, YOU CANNOT! Yet it is a pillar of your entire eschatological framework.

You get that from dispie books, not scripture. How are they related to sin?