Redefining Draw to mean God uses a Tractor Beam.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Van, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. Van

    Van
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    In a recently closed thread, JonC posted the following:

    "I didn't notice ("drag" was the literal definition..."draw" vs. "drag" by an inward power...I was concentrating on the "inward power" being of God and not man...not whether it was "draw" or "drag"...but I appreciate the correction).

    The verse indicates, then, that we were "drawn by an inward power"...but what is this power? Is it our own "human response"? Not according to Scripture - it is God's "drawing". God "draws us with an inward power". Does this mean that God attracts us? You could use that, but only if you are speaking of "attract" in such a way as to include an inherent "inward power".

    Here you:

    1. take "draw" remove it from a connection to it's literal definition ("drag"),
    2. replace it with "draw" as a metaphoric definition ("draw with an inward power")
    3. and then consult an English dictionary to make "draw" read "attract" ("attract with an inward power").
    4. get rid of God's hand in the process ("with an inward power" being the work of the Father)
    5. reduce the original "draw with an inward power" down to "attract"
    6. and add "human response" to conclude that God attracts all men, who come as a human response.

    And you denounce other interpretations as taking liberties with the text. :confused:

    Did it ever occur to you that perhaps God drawing people means exactly that? Maybe we do not have to change it to a metaphor, and then exchange part of the metaphor for another word, and then add "human response". Maybe if we pause a moment, simply looking at the "inward power" being (according to Scripture) of the Father and not a "human response" we can simply move on and know that God drew us to Himself"

    One of the lexiconal meanings attributed to the Greek word translated draw in John 12:32 is draw by inward power. But is this the only meaning given? Of course not.

    Here is the actual quote, "
    1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
    So a Tractor Beam is no where in view. God draws us with lovingkindness. Our human response to Jesus suffering and dying on the cross (high and lifted up) is to be attracted to the One who died for us.

    All these charges that I am not presenting an unbiased view are simply an effort to undercut the mainstream view.

    1) Did I replace the literal meaning for the metaphoric meaning, or did JonC replace the metaphoric meaning with the literal meaning?

    2) Did I edit the lexiconal meaning to exclude "lead" and "impel?"

    3) Is the only place the Greek word (G1670-helko) is said to mean "attract" in the KJV Dictionary?
    Here is Thayer's "I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32."
    God draws by lovingkindness, Jeremiah 31:3. Clearly our human response to God's revelation is in view, not a supernatural tractor beam.

    4) Did I "get rid" of the Father's influence? No, it is the Father who does the "drawing" but by an attractive appeal rather than a tractor beam.

    5) As used in John 6:44 and John 12:32, draw means attract. To claim it means a tractor beam ignores the lexicons, and redefines attract to mean tractor beam.

    6) Did I "add" human response, or is that how God leads us to Christ? Read Jeremiah 31:3 again, human response to God"s lovingkindness is in view. I did not add human response, someone seems to want to delete it.

    Bottom line no valid argument has been made to support that draw does not mean attract at John 6:44 and 12:32.
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

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    We are drawn by an inward power. Drawn mean to literally 'drag off'. The same word was used when Peter drew the sword(as Jon already noted in another post on another thread). Was the sword attracted to Peter's hand, thereby freely choosing to be drawn or was it drawn by Peter effectually taking hold and drawing it?
     
  3. Van

    Van
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    "John 6:44. [draw him] It is the same word as is used John 12:32; ‘will draw all men unto Me.’ The word does not necessarily imply force, still less irresistible force, but merely attraction of some kind, some inducement to come. Comp. ‘with loving-kindness have I drawn thee’ (Jeremiah 31:3), and Virgil’s trahit sua quemque voluptas."

    God leads and some follow Him to Christ.
     
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  4. Van

    Van
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    Luther says on this passage: "The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes."
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    The Greek word Helkuo, translated 'draw,' appears six times in the N.T.
    John 6:44
    John 12:32
    John 18:10
    John 21:6
    John 21:11
    Acts 16:19.
    It also appears in the Septuagint in Song of Solomon 1:4 and Jeremiah 31:3. The point is not the violence of the drawing (though that is clearly present in some of the examples) but the irresistibility. The sword could not resist being drawn from the scabbard; the net could not resist being drawn up onto the shore; Paul and Silas could not resist being dragged into the market-place. Nor can God's elect resist the gracious effectual calling of the Lord (Mark 1:16-20). That they follow willingly does not make the drawing any less irresistible. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power' (Psalm 110:3).
    The word helko is used in Acts 21:30 and James 2:6.



    Luther is quite right; it is a gracious drawing, but none the less irresistible for all that. 'To whom everybody willingly goes.' All those who are so drawn will come to Christ (John 6:37a).
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Jun 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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  6. Van

    Van
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    LOL Martin, in the examples you cited, Jeremiah 31:3, etc, the word is used to describe the attraction of lovingkindness, not a tractor beam from a SyFi spaceship. Luther said "allurement" in the quote. There is no support whatsoever in the Lexicons for allurement's irresistibility.

    We have John 6:44, John 12:32, Jeremiah 31:3 and Song of Solomon 1:4 using the word to describe attraction, allurement and the winsome nature of lovingkindness. No need to rewrite the definition as God's tractor beam.
     
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  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Van, who has used the term 'tractor beam' other than your good self? It sounds to me like a smiley face drawn on an agricultural vehicle. :D

    Why don't you address what I wrote, and the various Bible texts I quoted?
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    I am sorry Martin, you never saw Star Wars, but tractor beams are used to pull (compel) the good guys spaceship into the bad guys space ship. Sorry for confusing you.

    I looked at your verses, but concluded they were non-germane.

    Certainly Mark 1:16-20 addressing Jesus calling His disciples has no bearing either on the meaning of draw, or the fiction of the efficacious call.

    Psalm 110:3 refers to people committed to Yahweh, volunteering to serve. The opposite of a tractor beam.

    Acts 21:30 uses helkuo in the literal sense, so again non-germane.

    James 2:6, ditto.

    Acts 16:19, ditto

    John 18:10, ditto

    John 21:6, ditto

    John 21:11, ditto

    But the metaphoric uses remain, John 6:44, 12:32, Jeremiah 31:3, and Song of Solomon 1:4. No need to hide them in a smoke screen.
     
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  9. SovereignGrace

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    Van, when God draws, He does through via an inward power. Meaning, it is an effectual drawing performed by His own power. For you to say that God draws all, but not all He draws will come makes man more powerful than God, the One who created us and all that we see...and don't see.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I think you'll find they are very germane.
    Only if you are so committed to your own view that you won't look at the facts. When the Lord Jesus calls His disciples, they come. Consider Levi/Matthew in Luke 6:28. At the word of our Lord, 'he left all, rose up, and followed Him.' There was no question of him or the others declining the call. To be sure, there are those of His elect who run from Christ at first, Saul of Tarsus being the prime example. 'Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth......' (Acts 26:9). But God had already appointed Saul to serve Him (Acts 9:15). And there was no possibility of his refusing the call one moment longer than God decreed. The light shone from heaven and he grovelled in the dust (Acts 9:3-4). 'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me......' (Gal. 1:15-16). Perhaps there are others reading this who, like me, resisted God's call for as long as they could but eventually submitted to the 'Hound of Heaven.'
    'I fled Him down the nights and down the days,
    I fled Him down the arches of the years;
    I fled Him down the labyrinthine ways
    Of my own mind and in the mist of tears
    I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
    Up vistaed hopes I sped; and shot, precipitated,
    Adown Titanic glooms of chasmed fears,
    From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
    But with unhurrying chase, and unperturbèd pace,
    Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
    They beat--and a Voice beat
    More instant than the Feet--
    "All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."'

    [Read the whole poem by Francis Thompson here
    http://www.houndsofheaven.com/thepoem.htm ]
    They are volunteers, but only 'in the day of [Christ's] power.' Until then they are rebels and miscreants, 'by nature, the children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Yet God chose them from the very beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13), gave them to the Son who has redeemed them at measureless cost (John 17:2 etc.) and there is no possibility but that they come to Him, willingly, yet irresistibly drawn. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me' (John 6:37).
     
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  11. Van

    Van
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    Hi Martin, all your verses were non-germane. You simply read between the lines and claim what is not taught. The disciples were looking for the promised Messiah.

    Inward power refers to the allurement of charisma. God draws by lovingkindness, not irresistible grace.

    Volunteers chose to support God. Not conscripts.

    The from the beginning of what? You have no idea. Since they were chosen through faith in the truth, the beginning appears to be the beginning of the New Covenant. It's a lock.

    Do not rewrite John 6:37 to say All that the Father draws will come to Me. Not how it reads.

    Bottom line, draw when used metaphorically refers to our human response to the attraction of God's lovingkindness. Christ dying for us draws us to Him. But not irresistibly, for many choose to continue to store up wrath.
     
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Jn6:44 stands against these repeated errors
     
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  13. Van

    Van
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    Yes, John 6:44 stands against the rewrites and redefinition of the nameless doctrine.

    God draws by the allurement of His lovingkindness, especially when He died for all mankind.

    Scripture provides two rules for arriving in Christ (coming to Him positionally) and they are:
    1) No one can come unless they are drawn by the call of the gospel.
    2) No one can come unless the Father allows it. He did not allow Judas to come.​
     
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  14. Martin Marprelate

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    I'm not aware that I did that. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.' All those given by the Father to the Son will come, so that on the last day He can say, 'Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.' How will they come? They will be irresistibly drawn. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him......' It's as easy as 123:

    1. The Father sets His love upon a vast crowd of sinners and gives them to the Son to redeem.
    2. The Son redeems them by paying the penalty for their sins upon the cross.
    3. The Father draws them to trust in Christ through the power of the Spirit.

    BTW, you haven't yet told me whether those people in Matthew 23:13 made it into the kingdom of heaven. Surely you must know? You keep quoting the verse at us. :)
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Oops! You appear to have succumbed to the ancient error of Patripassionism.
     
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  16. Van

    Van
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    Lets look at these bogus arguments, skipping the gratuitous you must be a heretic.
    How do we come to
    and arrive in Christ, God gives us to Christ, He transfers us into Christ, He puts us in Christ, we are in Christ by His doing.

    I have said repeatedly that the people of Matthew 23:13 were blocked, they did not complete their entry into the kingdom of heaven. Yet Martin cannot seem to resist posting misinformation to obfuscate.

    If a person is drawn, then they may place their devotion and faith in Christ. If their faith is such that God credits it as righteousness, then He alone puts them into Christ. That is why scripture says we are chosen through faith in the Truth.

    Stand by for more wholesale denial of God's word.
     
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  17. Darrell C

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    If all men are drawn as a result of Christ being lifted up, should we not then address the issue with a focus on how that is relevant to being drawn?

    I was going to be facetious and just say "Beam me up, Lord...there's no intelligent life down here," but thought better of it.

    Of course, I still look forward to being beamed up in the Rapture.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C

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    Could you give a brief description of what "entering in" refers to in a context that is under Law and/or previous to the Age of Law (though I think it is specific to the Law because of those being addressed by the Lord)?


    God bless.
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

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    No obfuscation, just seeking clarification. So these people, whom you have declared to be unregenerate, did not enter the kingdom of heaven. If you are correct about their status, surely that is exactly what one would expect to happen? :) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."
     
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  20. Darrell C

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    Okay, no word back from brother Van, so I will ask you the same question, Martin:

    If all men are drawn as a result of Christ being lifted up, should we not then address the issue with a focus on how that is relevant to being drawn?

    Secondly...how does Scripture teach that God draws men?


    God bless.
     

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