Reformed, Calvinist or both?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by FERRON BRIMSTONE, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE
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    What I meant was that I consider Election/Predestination Biblical. But my Church has never taken a stand on the issue.

    It is my understanding that Calvinistic Churches also Baptize infants and do not have altar call at the end of the service. Am I correct on this?



    I believe Gods sovereignty and the freewill of Man are both clearly taught in Scripture.


    Election:

    John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


    John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


    Freewill:

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


    Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!



    If Scripture is without error and Scripture teaches both, then both must be true, correct?


    After sin was introduced, and God entered the garden looking for Adam, what did Adam do?

    Genesis 3:10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

    He hid, and Man has been hiding from God ever since.

    Revelation 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

    We will not come to God on our own, even though we have the freewill to do so. Rather we run from God and the acknowledgement of our sins.

    God desires that all of us would come to him, but none of us will come on our own. So God does not choose who will go to hell, we choose hell ourselves. The problem is without God calling us and convicting us of our sins, we will continue in them, thus rejecting God and deserving hell.

    Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

    The existence of the World and all that is in it is clear evidence of God, yet we will not come to him without him initiating the call by placing conviction and guilt on our hearts. Therefore God Chooses some of us, for his own Divine reasons and through no merit of our own, to bring to him.


    Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.


    This is the reason that Man is responsible if he goes to hell, but God deserves all the credit for salvation.
     
  2. J.D.

    J.D.
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    All baptists, whether calivinistic or not, practice believer's baptism. If they baptise babies, they are not baptists.

    As for altar calls, it varies, but generally speaking, calvinistic churches practice invitational preaching by urging people to receive Christ (which is biblical), but do not demand people to "come to the altar" (which is not biblical). I believe most calvinists will agree with me in my opinion that when a person becomes born again and receives Christ he does not have to be begged into confessing him.
     
  3. J.D.

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    Also, I think there is a technical difference between "reformed" and "calvinistic", but the terms are usually used interchangeably in normal conversation. Both terms commonly refer to the system of soteriology (salvation) based on God's freedom to choose and predetermine the end (sovereignty). A baptist that is reformed or calvinist does not typically follow John Calvin's and other reformers' teachings beyond the doctrine of salvation.
     
  4. Jeep Dragon

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    Preach that! That's what I tried to point out in my "+1 for Calvinism?" topic. People who try to define what Sovereignty is or isn't can limit the definition of Sovereignty if they are not careful. Why can't God be sovereign enough to create free-will beings and be able to work His sovereign will around their choices. He doesn't have to directly control people's choices all the time if He foreknows their choices. When the Bible expresses God sovereignly controlling people, He does. When the Bible talk about people making choices, they did. We must be careful not to filter an entire perspective of the Bible around certain passages with certain points of view.
     
  5. J.D.

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    Man's choices are free within the boundery of his nature. Adam chose freely to sin and received the curse - the curse, that boundery, into which we are born.

    Man freely (according to his nature) chooses to sin; God freely (according to his purpose and will) chooses to save the elect from that sin-nature.

    There is no contradiction or perpetual tension. But I understand that even many calvinists accept the idea of a paradoxical relationship or a perpetual tension. That's alright, but when pressed, I think we should all come down on the side of God's freedom and sovereignty.
     
  6. npetreley

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    It depends upon what you mean by that. If, as others have said, you mean that God sovereignly decided to give man the ultimate choice when it came to salvation, then that's a nonsensical contradiction in terms. You can't sovereignly decide to abdicate your throne on a decision and still be sovereign. By turning the decision over man, God ceases to be sovereign. It is just double-talk to say that His decision to turn it over to man was a sovereign decision.

    "It is my sovereign decision not to be sovereign" still ends up with God not being sovereign.
     
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Unbelief

    The elect of God was not able to enter because of unbelief.

    We are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

    Man's flesh is evil, and the scripture teaches that. It does not say that your whole being is corrupt only your flesh.

    Do not let men give you ann excuse that you cannot enter because you are depraved.

    THe Holy Spirit is right at the door of your heart through the words of Jesus asking to open the door and let Him come in.

    Do not let men's word draw you away from Jesus. You are not depraved as long as the Holy Spirit is right at the door, do not turn away from Him. If you let Him in He will change your life.

    He will come in and purify you from the inside out with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    You have a hope, don't let men give you an excuse that you are depraved.

    God loved the world not the elect that He sent His Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    God will cut the very elect out for unbelief.

    Believe the word, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare you either. If you disown Jesus He will disown you. If you do not endure to the end you will perish elect or not.

    You hope is Jesus not man-made doctrine

    Scripture is our doctrine, not mens words that leads men astray from the truth.

    God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is a calling to those of us that believe, to bring the whole world the hope that we have, and our hope is Jesus.

    Do not let men give you excuses why not to come. The Father will draw you through the words of Jesus. Do not turn away from Him.

    When you hear the words of Jesus you are being elected, and you can walk away, just like the young rich ruler did. Any one who comes to Jesus, Jesus will in no wise cast you out.

    God wants all men to be saved, just as the scripture says, don't let men teach you any different.

    God has opened two doors to all men to believe in Jesus and be saved, and do not and be condemned. He has not inclined our heart in any direction, but gave us a choice
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Sep 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2006
  8. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Just some brief remarks Ps.

    The elect will not have any unbelief . They are granted faith by the Lord .

    Yes , we are not to be arrogant . We are to be thrilled that the Lord has provided the way for Gentiles to receive faith and be grafted in .

    The word "flesh" has to be fleshed out.:smilewinkgrin: As believers we have to combat the world the flesh and the devil . You have the wrong notion about our bodies . Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit . But are whole being ( not our bodies ) thoughts , will and so on are indeed entirely corrupt . We are totally depraved before regeneration . That does not mean that we are as evil as it is possible to be though .

    All people apart from the Lord are indeed depraved . All are not depraved to the same extent , but still depraved enough to merit the Lake of Fire . All people have the inability to turn to the Lord . The Lord opens the minds and hearts to those of His choosing .

    Revelation 3:20 was addressed to believers at Laodicea . That verse is a popular one to wrench from its context. "Poor Jesus , won't you let Him in ? He's waiting . He's sad . You have the power of the knob . Please , do it for Him ." Nope , I can't go along with that drivel .

    I do not believe that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit is at the door of everyone's heart .

    What kind of "fire" will the Holy Spirit use in your understanding ? Beware of strange fire .

    God loved the world -- composed of people from every nation , tribe and tongue . From out of that mass of humanity He had chosen His elect ones before the foundation of the world . " ... whovever believes in Him . " That narrows the field some , doesn't it ? The ones who believe are the ones of His choosing .

    None of the elect will have unbelief causing them to be cut off . Some of the ones that folks think are in the Kingdom were never His to begin with . In 1 John 2:19 it says : They went out from us , but they did not really belong to us . For if they had belonged to us , they would have remained with us ; but their going out showed that none of them belonged to us .

    The elect will not spiritually perish .

    My hope is indeed in the accomplished work of christ on my behalf . No member of the Trinity was uninvolved in the crosswork . But propostions have to be believed . One can't just believe in Jesus . That's too nebulous . There has to be substance behind the vacuous phrase " I just believe in Jesus ." Of couse you are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved . But it is more to it than those bare words .

    Yeah , my faith is not in manmade doctrines . The doctrines I believe are found only in God's Holy Word . Many godly men have blessed the Church with their hard studies though . The Lord uses that for His glory .

    Did God want anyone saved whose name He did not inscribe in the Lamb's Book Of Life ?

    We are to have the desire to bring many into the Kingdom as the Lord's instruments . But the Holy Spirit will carry-out the plans of the Godhead .

    You said " When you hear the words of Jesus you are being elected ... " No , people come to saving faith in this thing called time , but election is already fixed , determined . The rich young ruler was not elect if he turned away never to come back . Maybe he did come back , the Scripture does not say . But if that account in the Gospels is the sole event regarding His relationship with the Lord --he is condemned .

    You are right , all who come to Jesus He will not cast away . He won't turn any away who come to Him . Who comes to Him ? Answer : Those who He causes to come unto Him .

    God wants all He has determined from before the foundation of the world to come to Him . He arranges it ! From among all the tribes , nations and languages He has a people whom He draws to Himself .

    In Romans 11:25 it says ... until the full number of the Gentiles come in .

    That means until all whom God is determining to save from among the Gentiles are saved .

    If you are thinking of 2 Peter 3:9 -- that is referring to the elect . It can not refer to the world at large or it would not make any sense . The epistles of Peter were written to the elect . The King James has the comforting words " to usward " . Not everyone -- the sheep of His fold alone . The ones He does not pray for will not be members of His Body .

    In Psalm 110:3 from the KJV it says : "Thy people will be made ready in the day of your power ." He most certainly inclines the hearts and minds of a cetain number to Himself . All would eternally perish with His Divine Intervention ! He transfers us from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light . He made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ . ( 2 cor. 4:6 ) . We we were dead in sin ( Eph. 2:1 , Col. 3:13 ) but He made us alive with Christ . He loved the Church and gave Himself up for her . ( Acts 5:25 ) .

    There are just too many scriptures to cite . But you get the idea .
     
    #8 Rippon, Sep 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2006
  9. FERRON BRIMSTONE

    FERRON BRIMSTONE
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    The elect are protected.


    Mat 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


    Mar 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.


    Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.


    Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


    Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
     
  10. skypair

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    They're "elect" before the believe, right? Sure there's going to be a period when they are in unbelief! Or are you saying they also have 'faith' before they believe?

    NOT until we are saved, they're not. Which is precisely when Psa is saying that only the flesh is totally depraved.

    See, that last statement puts the lie to all the rest! We're totally depraved -- but not totally! :laugh:

    Do you even know what is depraved and what isn't? We have a "sin nature." Like an animal, we have "instincts." We also have the awareness of self AND of God in our conscience/soul. Do you deny this? When "instincts" converge with self awareness when we mature, we allow "instinct" to overreach beyond the bounds of "need" into the desire for what we shouldn't have or do. That's sin. And when we realize that sin is against the God's "law," sin is alive and we die, Rom 7:9-11.

    Read Paul's discourse on Mars Hill, Acts 17:23-27 -- especially 17:26-27, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:..." Course, this is the Lord outside the "door" in Rev 3:20, isn't it.

    So God is NOT omnipresent?

    Silly, YOU "narrowed the field!" We have always said that one MUST believe BEFORE one can be regenerated or have faith or be "elect." Your view seems to be that God can make someone believe who doesn't even know the facts!

    Maybe you don't have the paradigm down yet:

    Hear -> believe -> RECEIVE -> regenerated/faith/eternal life/gifts of the Spirit/etc.

    Especially those who were batpized as infants! :laugh:

    Please tell us what you envision by this??

    I fie that is no true! There's no "total depravity," no "irresistible grace," no "limited atonement," no "unconditional election, is there?

    Romans 1 says ALL come to him -- therefore, man is without excuse. Now does that mean they all believe? No. THAT is the point of divergence in destinies. And here's how it works -- God is present in us (our conscience) and all around us (His creation/Spirit, read Prov 8, the "wisdom of God" but especially 8:31-36). Remember, even at Mars Hill is was revealed that men seek after the advantages they see in knowing a god -- even if they at first perceive Him as of the sun or moon.

    There's one of those teachings of men that you claim not to believe or follow. The passage says "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance." Peter's epistle can be to whoever it is to -- that still doesn't restrict every statement to the elect only! You certainly wouldn't say that the "dog returning to his vomit refers to "them," the "elect," now would you?

    Yeah, I'm getting the idea that the scriptures alone don't support your theology! :laugh:

    skypair
     
  11. jne1611

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    Scripture says it is not possible for Satan to finally deceive the elect.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Joh 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    I lift up Jesus

    I lift up Jesus higher than man made doctrine and men come out and defend thier doctrine.

    God has given believers enternal life and as long as we believe, no one can pluck us out of Jesus hands.

    Jesus said that very sarcastically the very elect was deceived if tha was possible, because He was witnessing to the elect of God Jews who were deceived.
     
  13. jne1611

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    It is apparent that you have no concept of what election means as relating to salvation. And calling Scripture man made doctrine doesn't help your argument either. Christ said they will never perish. Now either He is wrong & you are right, or your wrong & He is right & I believe Jesus. If you lift up Jesus, then recognise what he said & put away this misrepresentation of His salvation. If His sheep are lost, He lost them & that is not going to happen!
     
  14. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Scripture

    WE must live on every word that comes from the mouth of God, not just on little pieces of bread. We are not to let man-made doctrine enfluence our understanding of scripture. We are not to lean on our own understanding but trust in Jesus.

    If you look at the scripture and also include that. If you disown Jesus He will disown us and those who endure to the end to be saved. Then what I wrote makes perfect sence with the scripture He gave.

    Believers have been predestined to salvation, not non-believers. Non-believers have been predestined to condemnation
     
  15. FERRON BRIMSTONE

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    Psalms,
    I have to disagree, no where in Scripture does it teach that God predestines who will go to hell. All men will choose to go to hell if God does not intervene. But God does not desire that any should perish. I know it is a fine line, but mans condemnation must rest on themselves as Scripture teaches.
     
  16. FERRON BRIMSTONE

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    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."



    John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


    John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."


    John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
    10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
    10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.



    John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.



    Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
     
  17. jne1611

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    Amen. Great Scriptures. Not a few pieces of bread.
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    Yes it does

    It says that whosoever does not believe shall be condemned, non- believers have been predestined to hell.

    I agree with all the scripture that you gave and all the scripture I gave.

    That you must endeure to the end to be saved, and if you dis own Jesus He will disown you.

    You cannot agree with one scripture and not another.

    See your trust is in Jesus, not your own understanding.

    God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and made us the messenger of it

    2 Corinthians 5:16
    So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Jesus came into His own

    Jesus came into His own, and His own received Him not.

    Jesus came into His own sheep and they received Him not.

    So we come to a point where Jesus disowned His own sheep, because they disowned Jesus.

    Who is Jesus sheep, it is believers.

    Those who He foreknew is believers, He has predestined that believers be saved and justified them through the cross of Jesus.

    Continue in your belief and do not be arrogant, but afraid if God did not spare the natural branchers He will not spare you either.

    Do not the words of men deceive you, God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Do not let men give you an excuse that you are depraved, and that thier is nothing good in because it is speaking of your flesh. In your flesh you have no hope, but in Jesus you do.

    You have a hope for your soul and His name is Jesus Christ.

    As the scripture says'

    1 Peter 1:
    Praise to God for a Living Hope
    3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Sep 18, 2006
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  20. FERRON BRIMSTONE

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    There is no Sripture that states that God determines who will go to hell. One might say that man predestinates himself to hell through the rejection of Christ.

    If you disagree please give Scripture and verse.
     

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