Reformed Question

He is not only the propitiation for His own among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles scattered throughout the earth.

 

Valid point Rippon, but keep in mind, I was not attempting to imply "universalism" but rather that Christ did indeed die for all men "substitutionally" vs. "penally".

 

Can you explain the dichotomy you make between "substitutionally" and "Penally?"

The Archangel

 

No.

I do understand your point because I thought that way for years. I argued that very thing once.

But it rests upon an erroneous premise: that God behave in a way that man finds palatable. This of course is not so.

God can do as he pleases because he is God. Man cannot hold God to account any more than ants can hold man to account. I think we would agree the gap between God and man is vastly wider than that between man and ants.

If man can do with ants as he pleases then who are we to demand that God do as we please?

 

Luke,
Really poor analogy unless you think the earth is an ant farm. God incarnate......Jesus , wants to have a relationship as Brother,Savior,Lord, with us all. Never hear any ants crying abba to us humans. He is real, living, and able to relate to all on a level we are able to reach. May we never lose sight of Jesus!

 

I mean no disrespect, but don't you think if God WANTS to do something, like have a relationship with ALL humankind, then He WILL do it ?
He wanted a universe, and He spoke it into existence, complete with physical and chemical laws.
He wanted an earth, so He spoke it into existence, complete with atmosphere and all.
He wanted living creatures on that earth, so He created living creatures.
He wanted someone to tend to His creation, so He created man out of the dust.
He wanted man with Him in His heaven, so He sent His only Son to redeem many from this human race.
Did He recruit any human being's help in creating ?
Did He wait for any human being's response to His wants ?
Did He ask permission from any human being to send His own Son to death on that cross ?
No.
He wanted these things.
He did them.
And when He did, His actions benefited one and all, elect or non-elect, except in the matter of redemption, which was for His people alone.
(Unless you agree with Benoni, the universalist of this board.)

 

If Christ died for everyone in existence "substituionally" then everyone in existence will be in heaven. Substitution means one stood in the place of another. Christ stood in the place of some group at the cross. At that time the Father laid on Him the sins of that group. He suffered what that group would have suffered for all eternity so that they wouldn't suffer. He paid the penalty they would have paid. He once suffered, the just for the unjust. Because He suffered for that group's sins, they were justified in the sight of God. He made peace for that group in the sight of God through His death at the cross. In other words, He saved that group from eternal hell through His death at the cross. Now, because Jesus died for that group, noone can lay a single charge against them. God has justified them. There is noone that can condemn them because Christ died for them. There is absolutely nothing left that can send them to hell. Every single person that Christ died for is destined for heaven.

Now, who is that group? Well, if the believer in universal atonement is right, it is everyone in existence. That means everyone in existence will end up in heaven. But, we have a problem. The bible tells us that some men end up in hell, even some in Jesus' day. We solve this problem by looking to the bible for what it says. It says that the ones Christ died for are the elect. We are then told that the elect are the ones that the Father chose before the foundation of the world and gave to His Son to save. They are the ones predestinated to eternal heaven. They are the ones Christ came down from heaven to save, not losing any, but raising them all up at the last day. They are the seed He saw when He was offering Himself to the Father. They are the sheep the Good Shephard laid down His life for. They are His people the angel told Joseph He would save, thus was He named Jesus, meaning Savior.

 

Excellent point Luke. I too saw at the heart of the issue the pride of man. :thumbsup:

 

These men who crucified Christ were not saved. They were the unbelieving Jews who crucified Christ, with the cheif preist as there leader. Since they weren't saved because of there blindness. they couldn't have been elect.
MB

 

Please admit the fact that you have no idea if "these men who crucified Christ" were saved or not. We do not know but I kinda get the impression that a soldier or two may have believed when Christ died.

 

Everyone crucified Christ.
Elect.
non-elect.

If you go for symbolism or representation, this truth is represented by the fact that those in the crowd included men from the Jews (God's national people) and men from the Gentiles.

The Jews demanded for His crucifixion.
His friends among the Jews deserted Him.
And Roman hands hammered the nails.

So I wouldn't go pointing fingers at anyone saying they were not saved.

 

Paul held the garments of them that stoned Stephen and persecuted the church. Turns out God changed his heart a little later on. He sure didn't look like he was elect prior to Acts 9.

 

The type of Love that God has for His elect is called "Agape". It is a perfect love. I dont even know if humans are capable of having "perfect" love.
Also, The sins that nailed Christ to the cross were only those of the elect. He paid the fine. He was the propitiation for those sins. That is what makes the salvation of the Christian secure. Jesus was the PERFECT price. The non-elect will pay the fine with eternal punishment. If Jesus died for them too, then their sins would be paid for too. they arent. God doesnt punish twice for the same sins. There are two ways to satisfy the Father for payment of sin. Namely, a finite being(man) punished infinitely (hell) OR an infinite being (Jesus) being punished finitely (cross). We know that many will go to hell. We also know that many will go to heaven. But hey, the gospel is offered freely to everyone. But faith and repentance are a gift of God. He gets the glory. Those who are non-elect do not care. They revel in sin. So be glad, if you are a follower of Jesus, that means you are of the Elect. It is secure. Give God the glory for your regeneration, and don't try to steal the glory by taking credit for making a choice all the while you were dead in sins and tresspassses.

 

Deleted.....

 

But Jesus did die and pay the sins of the non-elect, the scriptures say so.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

You can't get much more lost than these persons, they are false prophets and teachers bringing in "damnable" heresies who and bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

But notice that they are bought. Jesus paid their sins with his blood. Though they deny him, he has bought them.

 

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

If we no longer regard them in a worldly point of view, how are we to love them?

Have we placed our selves on the judgment seat?

Have any of you given the power to do this?

Acts 5
Ananias and Sapphira
1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

 

How do you know that these people were not elect? If believers do not persevere, as you say in another thread, isn't it possible that these fasle teachers were in fact Christians, but were bringing upon themselves an early death (not spiritual death) by their apostacy?

 

and people who have no understanding, at all, of what the Doctrine of Grace really teaches are quick to say that we are the ones who condemn where God doesn't.

The context of this entire book where the quotation comes from speaks of and to the elect, INCLUDING THOSE WHO EVENTUALLY, IN THIS TIME WORLD, DENIES HIM AND SURRENDER TO THEIR OLD NATURE'S PREDISPOSITIONS: DOUBTS, SIN, AND UNFAITHFULNESS.

 

Salvation

THOSE WHO EVENTUALLY, IN THIS TIME WORLD, DENIES HIM AND SURRENDER TO THEIR OLD NATURE'S PREDISPOSITIONS: DOUBTS, SIN, AND UNFAITHFULNESS.

Those people have not worked out their salvation with with fear and trembling at all.

2 Peter 1 (New International Version)

2 Peter 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Making One's Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Heb 6:8

Hebrews 6:
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.