Regeneration and Faith

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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  2. Yeshua1

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    Excellent !

    very good understand by that author of the truth from the bible that while justifys the ungodly thru His soveregn acts/works, there is still a necessity to have the elect given the Gospel, in order to have that used by the Lord to 'wake them up" to receiving Jesus thru faith, as the Spirit and the Word both are in play !

    And also appreciated the truth he expressed in the absurd belief some seem to hold that God regenerates sinners, and for years the walk around without having received jesus thru faith as of yet, so regenerated by the Spirit, yet not born again yet too?

    Didn't Spurgeon rail against that notion, as he was preaching to the lost, not to those already regenerated?
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Yes, one that conveniently deflects Hyper Calvinism onto Hard Shell Baptists. Forget about it! Author is already biased out of the gate.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    primitive baptists are by definition Hyper cals though, correct?
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Nope.....not from my prospective.....

    The other day someone was accused of being a Hyper Calvinist because they followed the DOG.....so, enough said on this matter.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    That is how they are viewed from both their own words and those who are critical..

    here is some answers from them on this topic:



     
  7. percho

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    Where did the faith come from? What brought the faith?

    And before the coming of the faith, Gal 3:23 YLT



    and the faith having come, Gal 3:25 YLT


    Is, the faith, a result of regeneration?

    The word of God tells us one of the oldest thoughts of God was that the Christ, the Son of the living God would die, shed his precious blood. The blood wherein lies the life (the living soul) of the flesh Lev. 17:11 Life in that verse if the Hebrew word for soul.

    One of the oldest thoughts of God.
    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19,20 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8

    Here is something that is without life, dead. Something that in order to be would require regeneration. Life again. Where is that life going to come from? The word of God tells us another of the oldest things God gave was, the promise of God.

    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1,2

    The regeneration of the Christ, the Son of God, as a Lamb establishes Jesus of Nazareth, the aforementioned, as the faith.

    The regenerated Jesus Christ is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not (before) seen.

    Another oldest thought the word of God tells us.

    Before the foundation of the world God elected that there would be some elected in Christ as a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    The word of truth was the determination of God shown above.

    BTW that in no way says those not chosen are cast into eternal fire. As a matter of fact here is what Eph. 1:9,10 say concerning other things.

    Having made known unto us (the elect) the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    Now the above I stated concerning Christ as the faith. Has not God proposed the selfsame thing for the elect, that is to be regenerated as Christ was? Eternally incorruptible? Compare Romans 6 and 2 Cor 5:1-5. Does not the gift of the Holy Spirit set us apart for the selfsame thing?

    Icon is not the foreordained death of the Son of God and the promise of God not the covenant of God, for his Son? The Son is obedient unto death and the Father gives him his promise?
     
    #7 percho, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2014
  8. Iconoclast

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    Many non cals seek to lump all who believe in grace and say they are hyper. These groups believe that the "means" used to Go with the gospel are not needful.That is why they face this charge.
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    On the link you can see where they are serving and establishing local churches in muslim dominated land. salvation, regeneration, and faith, happen in time even though they were planned and purposed in eternity .
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Yes...The Promise of God is the basis for all salvation and redemption of everyone who believes.That is clear in scripture.The issue is....the means used by God....IN TIME.:thumbs:
     
  11. kyredneck

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    From the article:

    ".. As people discover that God foreordains all things whatsoever that comes to pass..."

    Isn't it ironic Icon? Mainstream PBs consider you folks that hold to this error to be hyper. We don't hold to this, at all. (oh, there is a schism that does, but it's not 'mainstream PB')
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jan 24, 2014
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  12. kyredneck

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    So Icon, are you in total agreement with all that is presented in the article?
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Hello Kyred.....

    Could you clarify what is the error of this confessional statement?

    Perception can be mistaken for reality.While most of the doctrine is orthodox, the difference comes from the view of the means as it pertains to regeneration

    What do you believe to be the more mainstream idea?

    :wavey:
     
  14. kyredneck

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    If you believe that God has predestined all things whatsoever that comes to pass as the article states you are in great error.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Let's look. It is a general critique based on his study and interaction with some who have expressed this to him.

    1]
    If someone believs this as written , I see it as error.

    2]
    I agree fully with this......

    3]
    4]
    :thumbs:

    5]
    6]
    :thumbs:

    7]
    :thumbsup::wavey:
    8]
    9]
    I believe this also.

    10]
    Agreed...

    11]
    12]
    Overall... I am in substantial agreement with each of these points.What would you take issue with?
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Kyred....there is a significant difference in stated... decreed ,ordained/ or predestined.The quote from the confession is decreed...not predestined.
    Predestination is used of God setting a horizon for those who are redeemed.
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc03.html

    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
    yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

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    OK.....so I am clear, in (Isaiah 26:12)12 Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. Now does in fact literally mean “…all our works…?”
     
  18. kyredneck

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    He's a missionary AND a Fullerite, and that is the perspective that he is putting the bad mouth on the PBs from. PBs are generally Gillite, and refused to 'get with' the mission board program from the very beginning back in the early 1800s, and consequently they were branded with the derogatory label 'Hardshells' because of their obstinacy, they refused to change, and I thank God that they didn't change their focus from feeding the flock to populating heaven.

    This is all I've got to say on this. It riles me that you even posted this. You've disappointed me. I'm left wondering, why? Because you consider us hyper? Dangerous? Sheesh.
     
    #18 kyredneck, Jan 24, 2014
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  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    So it is your contention that these prospectives make a person a Hyper Calvinist, correct?
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I concur TOTALLY.....very disappointed! And FULLERITES.....dont even get me started.
     
    #20 Earth Wind and Fire, Jan 24, 2014
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