Regeneration, Prior to? IS? After "new birth"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, Dec 22, 2004.

  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    For those or you who say that you must be regenerated by the spirit before you are New Born, or Born Again, Here's what the beloved Peter says about it!

    Regeneration by the Word
    Is Peter wrong?
     
  2. whatever

    whatever
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    Is Peter wrong? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course Peter is right. Two translations I checked (ESV and HCSB) said "through the word of God", but KJV seems to agree with yours ("by the word of God"). Regeneration is the new birth, by the Holy Spirit, by means of the word of God. I suppose you'll disagree, and that's OK.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God!
     
  4. lets_reason_toghether

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    Brethren,

    Here is my thoughts on the text

    3 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    24 ΒΆ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
    25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


    Now in you translation it speaks of the word of GOd that lives and endures, hte KJV is liveth and abideth forever.

    Now abide to means is that which has life. For reference please read john 13. It is true that the scripture will endure forever. I beleive that the new birth is instintaneous and is by Jesus Christ the Word of God. Please read John 3:8, JOhn 5:25-29, John 6:63. It is the voice of God that calls teh dead to life (john 11:43 and lazurus) not just the words. Heb 11:3 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. Now scripture did not perform this action. Immediatly things were created.

    If the words is all that is needed to create or give life, then I should be able to go outside at 3 AM and cause light to shine out of darkness.

    heb 4:12-13 (read verse 13 and it says "in his [Word of God] sight

    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    Vs 24 he states all flesh is like grass and in verse 25 states but so there is a teaching hear of the somemthing that is not flesh i.e. the Spirit who inspired men to write scripture.

    in Verse 25 this word endureth not abideth. Meaning this, that the scipture endures forever.

    So you born again of incorrubtable seed (ijo 3:9) which was a act of imparting a creation by the Word of God [Christ] and this word of truth the gospel of about your salvation (eph 1:13-14) that Christ paid for, is preached to you.

    Also the Holy Ghost quickens or makes alive, he doesn't come in and entice. Light can't fellowship with darkness, if the Holy Ghost is present you are already born again. He who has the Spirit are already sons.

    I hope that at the least I have shown that there is more than one word of God spoken of in the scriptures.

    hope this helps.
     
  5. lets_reason_toghether

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    not all men have faith...

    2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    Faith is a gift, and this is given in regeneration. 2nd Pe 1:1-2 is like precious faith that is obtained by grace. Once a person is born of the Spirit then they have the fruit of the Spirit and faith is a fruit of the Spirit. (gal 5:22-23)

    So to a person that has already been born again they have faith (the gift) and when they hear the gospel it testifies to their heart. If they are so blessed and confess Christ excersing the faith given in regenation. By confessing Christ you renounce your works and you delivered [saved] from going about establishing your own righteousness (rom 10:3).

    Wes what does your bible say in 2th 3:2?

    Thanks, I hope this helps
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Well, I suppose if'n yu was God, you could.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    Faith is not a gift. Faith is not a commodity that one can give, as in transfer of ownership.

    God does not give faith, and the word of God does not give faith. However, God and His word give man All the reasons to have faith. Faith is an internal condition of the spirit of man! It is the condition God looks for in man. When He finds it he saves the man!
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    It is "the knowledge of our Lord" that causes one to have faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The word of God provides the Knowledge of our Lord through which we develop faith. Now that doesn't happen the instant one knows enough and trusts enough to submit himself to God. Coming to "saving faith" is what we call the born again experience. It is when one submits to God that one is born again. It is when one gains knowledge of the Lord that true faith sets in.
     
  9. prophecynut

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    Regeneration is the same as being born again, faith is given at the same time. It is when one's heart is change that true faith sets in.
     
  10. dean198

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    the idea that regeneration results in faith is obviously erroneous. We actually receive new life as a result of faith. Unless new life and regeneration are different, then faith results in regeneration.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Faith is not given! It cannot be given!

    Faith is what being born again is! It is going from not having faith to having faith; From not believing to believing; from being goat to being sheep; from sinner to saint.
     
  12. pastorjeff

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    And how is that possible? Where does the faith come from? Faith is given by God. Eph. 2:8 speaks of the giving of that faith. I can have no faith on my own. If I try to muster up the faith to believe in Christ, then I am the one doing it. It then becomes works.
     
  13. pastorjeff

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    "Regeneration"- live again- is the new birth.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastorjeff;
    Faith is found in the hearing of God's word it is not the gift in Eph 2;8, Grace is that gift. Yet our faith is the work of God. It comes about through the workings of the Holy Spirit. It comes through conviction of knowing that you are a sinner and that you have never desevered the Love of Christ.
    Being born again is the results of our trust in the words of Christ. You cannot be saved with out faith and you cannot be saved without repentance. Your belief that man is regenerated before faith and repentance is not in scripture but only in your wishfull thinking.
    May Christ Shine His Light on us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Prophecynut;
    If so then you can prove this with scripture. I'd really like to see your proof;
    May Christ Shine His Light on us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  16. Ps104_33

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    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

    You dont give God much credit do you.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Eph 2:8,9 says that being saved is the gift of God and that is consistant with all the other scriptures that indicate that Salvation is the free Gift of God to all who believe in His son, Jesus.

    I paraphrase: "For while God is being gracious toward man, you are saved through faith, and not of anything that you do for yourself, salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast!"

    Throughout scripture, Salvation is always spoken of as "the gift of God to man". Throughout scriptures God's requirement for man is that he have faith in God and/or God the Son in order to receive the Gift of Salvation!

    To interpret Eph 2:8,9 any other way is to wrongly divide the word of truth!

    All through scripture man is commanded to have faith! How does on receive that which they are commanded to have of themselves?

    That is like LOYALTY! Loyalty cannot be given nor can it be taught, it must come from within! Loyalty is an internal attribute of the one being loyal.

    If, as you say, "faith" is a gift of God, then I challenge you to give me some of what you have. If you cannot do that, then you must rethink your understanding of scriptures!

    God does not have faith to give to man! Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. Does ALL KNOWING God hope for anything? is there anything that ALL SEEING God does not see? I'll take your answer to these questions as No there is nothing God hopes for or cannot see. Then can you explain what God needs of FAITH? If He has none, how can he give it? God wants us to be Loyal to him, but he does not give us loyalty. So where does loyalty in man come from?

    Faith in God comes to man via the content of the Word of God. The word of God contains knowledge of God it is this knowledge that our faith is based upon. The more Knowledge one takes in, the more there is to base faith upon.

    Faith in God is no different that faith in your chair. FAITH is FAITH, the Object of FAITH is what makes the difference. And, Yes, we can have hundreds, thousands, etc. objects of faith, but the only one that matters for eternity is FAITH in GOD! If your mind and heart are set "in" the kingdom of God, all the rest is added unto you. God said so!

    Have a Merry Christmas, and through it take in more knowledge of God, and you will gain more faith in God!
     
  18. pastorjeff

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    I stated that faith is a gift of God, therefor I can not give it to you for I am not God. Eph 2:8 has a pronoun in it. "that" what does "that" referre to?
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    The "That" in verse 8 is used with "not of yourselves": IT = being "saved" is the gift of God, not by something that you do, but as a gift of God so you have nothing to boast about!

    Grace is the way God view us, Grace being interpreted as "showing favor toward". So, "While God is showing favor toward man, man is saved through faith, and NOT of ourselves, being saved is a gift of God (promised by Jesus in John 3:16), This gift is not earned by works because we are all given different gifts with which to do works, so those with the gift to do great things would then have something to boast about to those who are given only those gifts by which the little things are done. God does not respect man's boasting in the least!

    For by grace are ye SAVED through faith. Being saved is what Paul is addressing, not receiving grace or faith as a gift of God. Salvation is throughout all scripture the free gift of God! He expects all who desire to have everlasting life, which is another way of saying "SAVED", to have faith based on the individuals knowledge of God. Now notice that I did not say that every individual must have exactly the same knowledge. However, when one accepts God, or God the Son, as someone to have faith in, it is then that the individual becomes "born again"! That is also why it is commonly said You must accept Jesus into your heart, meaning that you accept Jesus as the object of your faith, the one whom you place your faith in, the one you trust to deliver on promises made by him.
     
  20. pastorjeff

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    It can not referre to being saved. pronouns do not link back to verbs. Go back with a clean slate and link the Pronouns to their corresponding nouns. You will find "that" and "it" are pronouns for the same noun. Do they link to "grace" or "faith"? These are the only to choices grammatically. These are questions, not an answer. Come to the answer from the text, not pre-interpretational bias.
     

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