Regeneration ---- Then Faith

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by tnelson, Mar 2, 2004.

  1. tnelson

    tnelson
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    Do we first believe so that we can be born again, or do we believe because we have been born again?

    Please use Scripture to support your view. And do not make it to long. Thanks


    By His Grace
    mike
     
  2. Skandelon

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    I believe the scipture clearly teaches that the life giving Spirit comes through faith. That is that faith is the means by which the Spirit comes. Therefore, faith must precede the Spirit which gives new life.

    Galatians 3:14: that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
     
  3. Yelsew2

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    Before I start posting scripture tnelson, the better approach to the question is what is meant by "born again".
    What does is take to have enthusiasm?

    What does is take to be committed?

    No one is "enthusiastic" or "committed" without first believing in that which they are enthusiastic and committed to.

    This principle applies to all aspects of life, sports, war, music, design, supply, production, etc. It is quite simply a factor of human existance.

    So can one be called "born again" without believing?
     
  4. Frogman

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    The best scripture support is found at John 3 and spoken by Christ as well.

    He said, 'Except a man be born again...' That says regeneration is pre-faith. It is that which imparts spiritual life which enables faith.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Yelsew2

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    Try again Bro. Dallas, that meaning is not included nor implied in John 3.
     
  6. Frogman

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    G509
    ἄνωθεν
    anōthen
    an'-o-then
    From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

    G507
    ἄνω
    anō
    an'-o
    Adverb from G473; upward or on the top: - above, brim, high, up.

    G473
    ἀντί
    anti
    an-tee'
    A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.
     
  7. tnelson

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    This verse also supports regeneration / born again before faith.

    1 John 5:1
    "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everone who loves the father loves his child as well."

    A more literal translation of the Greek would be, "Everyone believing (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (perfect tense). The belief is an on-going thing, being born of God is a completed action in the past. Being born of God occurs before the believing, and is the basis of belief (faith). Those who are born of God believe that Jesus is the Christ. In a very similar passage earlier in the epistle, John taught the same thing.

    1 John 2:29, "If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."

    The grammar in this passage is the same as that in 5:1. The one who is doing reghteousness (does what is right) has been born of God. We do not do righteousness so that we can be born again, we do righteousness because we have already been born again. The new birth changes us and it then becomes our nature, as new creations in Christ Jesus, to believe, to repent, to do good works, to do righteousness.

    By His Grace
    mike
     
  8. Yelsew2

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    [John 3:3] Jesus &lt;Iesous&gt; answered &lt;apokrinomai&gt; and said &lt;epo&gt; unto him, Verily &lt;amen&gt;, verily &lt;amen&gt;, I say &lt;lego&gt; unto thee, Except &lt;ean&gt; a &lt;me&gt; man be &lt;tis&gt; born again &lt;gennao&gt;, he &lt;anothen&gt; cannot see &lt;ou - dunamai&gt; the &lt;eido&gt; kingdom of &lt;basileia&gt; God. &lt;theos&gt;
    [John 3:4] Nicodemus &lt;Nikodemos&gt; saith &lt;lego&gt; unto him, How &lt;pos&gt; can &lt;dunamai&gt; a man &lt;anthropos&gt; be born &lt;gennao&gt; when he is old &lt;geron&gt;? can &lt;dunamai&gt; he enter &lt;eiserchomai&gt; the second &lt;deuteros&gt; time &lt;deuteros&gt; into &lt;eis&gt; his mother's &lt;meter&gt; womb &lt;koilia&gt;, and be born &lt;gennao&gt;?
    [John 3:5] Jesus &lt;Iesous&gt; answered &lt;apokrinomai&gt;, Verily &lt;amen&gt;, verily &lt;amen&gt;, I say &lt;lego&gt; unto thee, Except &lt;ean&gt; a &lt;me&gt; man be &lt;tis&gt; born of &lt;gennao&gt; water and &lt;hudor&gt; of the Spirit, he &lt;pneuma&gt; cannot enter &lt;ou - dunamai&gt; into &lt;eiserchomai&gt; the &lt;eis&gt; kingdom of &lt;basileia&gt; God. &lt;theos&gt;
    [John 3:6] That which is born &lt;gennao&gt; of the flesh &lt;sarx&gt; is flesh &lt;sarx&gt;; and that which is born &lt;gennao&gt; of the Spirit &lt;pneuma&gt; is spirit &lt;pneuma&gt;.
    [John 3:7] Marvel &lt;thaumazo&gt; not that I said &lt;epo&gt; unto thee, Ye must &lt;dei&gt; be born &lt;gennao&gt; again &lt;anothen&gt;.
    [John 3:8] The wind &lt;pneuma&gt; bloweth &lt;pneo&gt; where &lt;hopou&gt; it listeth &lt;thelo&gt;, and thou hearest &lt;akouo&gt; the sound &lt;phone&gt; thereof &lt;autos&gt;, but canst &lt;eido&gt; not tell &lt;eido&gt; whence &lt;pothen&gt; it cometh &lt;erchomai&gt;, and whither &lt;pou&gt; it goeth &lt;hupago&gt;: so &lt;houto&gt; is every &lt;pas&gt; one that is born &lt;gennao&gt; of the Spirit &lt;pneuma&gt;.
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    Whosoever believeth is born again. It is by believing, which is through faith, which is by hearing the word of God, that one is born again.

    A litmus test for recognizing other believers, not a proof text for establishing which comes first the chicken or the egg.

     
  10. tnelson

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    Yelsew2, are you saying everyone has this faith.
     
  11. Yelsew2

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    Tnelson,
    Are you asking me if everyone believes?
     
  12. Frogman

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    isn't there a difference in having faith and believing?

    What is the difference in a Jew and a Christian?
     
  13. Yelsew2

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    The Jew, because of the Hardening of their hearts did, and do not recognize Jesus, the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, the Christ, the long awaited Messiah! (just like the children of Israel wandering in the wilderness. They were on the virge of entering the promised land, but out of fear refused to believe and enter. So God kept them apart for another whole generation because of their unbelief. There is no difference today! They are still wandering)

    Gentiles who are not hardened and not totally depraved did and still do recognize Jesus for who and what HE is.

    That is the difference! The Jew's faith is in God and God will one day soften their hearts and they shall be redeemed through faith. However they are still under the burden of LAW, because they do not believe in Jesus who is the Son of God, the Messiah. Those who do hold such belief are set free and for lack of a better term they are known as "Completed Jews" Glory to God!
     
  14. Yelsew2

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    As for the difference in believing and faith. Believing requires no faith except when that which is believed has no proof. Faith on the other hand requires believing. You cannot have faith in anything without first believing.

    Faith is not a gift of God, faith is a requirement that God levies on man! Faith is the toll one must pay in order to pass from death unto life. But you must first believe in order to have faith.

    Belief can be based on experience..."Seeing is believing". That which you cannot see but still believe in requires faith!

    Regeneration is the change of persuasion or change of conviction, that motivates one to change "life-style" from sinner to saint...like being born all over again, getting a new lease on life, making a radical change, "waking up and smelling the coffee". Regeneration requires initial belief, then the follow-on faith brought through knowledge (hearing the word of God)!

    It is not through some mysterious visitation that one becomes regenerated. However, a visit from the Holy Spirit often triggers the "interest" in hearing the word of God. It is the enticement, the seduction, that tweaks interest. It is not a regeneration of the human spirit. This tweaking may be in the form of encouragement or discouragement, even total devastation of the human spirit so that it will look to the God that every human spirit knows exists and is but a prayer away. But none of that is regeneration, because no change has taken place. Regeneration is the result of a change in persuasion and or coviction.
     
  15. Frogman

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    I like coffee...I really do...with cream and sugar though.

    What do you mean you can not have faith in something unless you believe?

    you said:
    You cannot have faith in anything without first believing.

    Now, what makes you to believe? You say that seeing is believing, do you see Jesus? You have also said that we do not see Jesus (showing the focal on the physical). Note that as the earth spins upon its axis, so also, if we are not careful, we return back to where we begun. What you are arguing here is what I believe to be Biblical truth.

    Only believers will have faith, only believers will call upon Christ in faith (Romans 10 esp. 8-14).

    But, what is that which is seen that causes the one possessing faith to believe first and then exhibit that faith?

    This dear brother is the order of regeneration, and you have stated it correctly.

    Why would I repent except that I believe the gospel report? I would not, therefore I must believe first. Can I believe from my own will? Well, you may argue yes, but for the fact scripture states that which is born of flesh is flesh. My will must be prevailed upon (conquered) and made willing by the Sovereign Grace of God.

    You know this, you just won't admit it, or else how did you believe first and then have faith? You obviously have not 'seen' Jesus at anytime especially that he was raised from the dead for your justification, so where does that belief come from?

    Is it a stripe on the leopard? :confused:

    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Yelsew2

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    Can you name for me one thing, one principle, one concept, one doctrine, one actuality that you have faith in where you did not first believe in it?

    As an infant just beginning to walk, you believed in the floor, because your fanny hit the floor a number of times when you lost your balance. Now you didn't know your relationship with the floor to be belief, but you came to rely on it (have faith in it) because it stopped your fall, that is it kept you from continuing to feel like you are falling. Of course it physically stopped you body too. But you believed first from experience, then developed faith, based on your belief.

    Faith in God, Faith in Jesus is the same. The faith of man comes first from believing, which becomes sustained belief (faith).

    By the way, acceptance is belief! Toleration is not necessarily belief.
     
  17. Frogman

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    Yeah, I know. BTW, I have a short leg, so I was delayed in excercising my faith in the floor that I previously believed in, and thereby I was slow in expressing the faith that was based on that belief and that permitted me to walk; does this mean that I rejected the floor and that though I think now I am walking, but I really have lost my faith in the floor and only think I am walking? If I have rejected my belief in the floor and have lost my faith, does that change the truth that the floor supports the weight of the presence of my body? How does that work?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Hardsheller

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    Yelsew2,

    You said: You believed first from experience, then developed faith, based on your belief.

    No problem here. Love your logic.

    Regeneration happens (That's experience)
    We Believe it happened (That's faith)
     
  19. Yelsew2

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    Hardsheller,
    Regeneration is the result of the experience not the experience itself.

    Experiential faith is based on knowledge and not belief! Faith in God comes from hearing God's word! Faith cometh by hearing, hearing is the experience, faith is the result!

    Using your logic, anything that comes before believing is regeneration. The word of God has been with man for milleniums with the result that not all are regenerated. If the prior existance of something equated to regeneration then ALL men would be regenerated by the existance of God's word. However we can see all around us that there are many more that are not regenerated than there are that have been regenerated. so your logic fails.

    But, if Faith cometh by hearing then those who actually hear God's word can choose to believe unto faith or not believe. It is not until one changes from within, meaning changes from a change in persuasion, that one is regenerated. Yes, it is truly, Choose you this day whom you will serve, but for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Those who experienced consumption of the offering and the altar, chose to believe and were thus "regenerated" by their belief. They actually left the false prophets standing by their cold altars, because they witnessed a "regenerating" event, that changed their persuasion from one thing to another based on what is believeable, not because of something they could not understand.
     
  20. Frogman

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    Yelsew, you are assuming that all mankind in all ages have heard the gospel?

    Where does this experience originate? From man or from God? if from man, then you affirm the philosophy that man is the measure of all things; I think, therefore I am.

    If from God, then you are following a trail that is wide in its diameter, but must necessarily return to where its source is.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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