Regeneration w/o Living Water?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    The question is, can a person be regenerated and at the same time NOT have the living water Jesus spoke of?

    This really is crystal clear, no need for jumping through hoops to get to an interpretation. Jesus clearly expresses the Spirit's living water attribute is what gives eternal life (John chapters 3&4) This is Christ becoming one with you by the Spirit, Christ in you, regeneration. You certainly would not declare that one can be regenerated and at the same time not have the living water Jesus speaks of, would you? Of course not. Well, I would hope not, but I will not speak for you.

    Now John is very specific...

    John 7:37 - "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink". This refers back to chapter 4 and the conversation Jesus had with the woman at the well, as well as Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus earlier.

    John 7:38 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Jesus said to the woman at the well, "If thou knewest the gift of God (what is the Gift of God? Romans 6:23 - "...the gift of God is eternal life"), and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink (Jesus Christ is that eternal life giving Gift); thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water (the vehicle by which this Gift is administered is by the Holy Spirit's living water).

    John 7:39 - "(But this [living water] spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive [they had not received it as of yet]: [Why?] for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    There simply is no way around this fact that regeneration is a post glorification implementation.....the Spirit has always been with man having many different works, but never was the Spirit's regenerating power of living water given to a person before the glorification of Jesus Christ. This is certainly crystal clear....
     
  2. convicted1

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    Rev. 22:17...The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.(ESV)

    The command is given to them that are thirsty. Now, can anyone choose to be thirsty?


    I ask this so that you can ponder on how they that thirst(and hunger) for righteousness shall be filled...

    I will expound after your response...
     
  3. steaver

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    Thirst for God comes by the grace of God. Heb 3:15 - "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." The scripture declares the voice of the Spirit can be heard, yet rejected. So God can grant a person thirst, but that person can refuse to come and quench that thirst God's way, and by so doing choosing to remain thirsty - as do the Jews as a whole do to this very day.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    Indeed, those whoa re lost in sins do continually reject the Holy Spirit and Jesus, but there will be NONE doing such whom God chose to save in the death of Jesus for their sins!
     
  5. steaver

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    So the Holy Spirit is warning unbelievers not to be unbelievers while at the same time knowing full well they have no choice but to be unbelievers? Yeah, that sure sounds logical. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    God is proclaiming to all sinners the truth that Jesus is the risen lord, and ONLY way to get saved, but only those granted 'ears to hear" will respond yp that calling!
     
  7. steaver

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    Yeah, like I said.....see above...
     
  8. convicted1

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    Steaver,

    Thank you. Tuesday night I was blessed to preach a message using this very topic. I have a monthly appointment on every 2nd tuesday night at a Separate Baptist church about 5 minutes from my house. It's the only Spearate Baptist church in the state of WVa. They are far from DoG, seeing that they believe one can be saved and lost again. They believe one can be saved for 40 years and denounce Christ and die eternally lost, iirc. TBS, here are the verses I took my sermon from...

    Isa. 55:1, Matt. 5:6, and Rev. 22:17.

    I asked them if they could make themself thirsty. I then said, "You might think you can make yourself thirsty by working hard all day, but what do you do after waking up from sleeping all night?" I said, "You'll get yourself a drink of water, coffee, pop, or something liquid." "How did you make yourself thirsty when all you did was sleep?" I stated that even Jesus said we didn't have the ability/power to change the color of one hair." I then went to Exo. 17 and Num. 20 and expounded on how the Israelites desired to drink some water and how Moses rebelled against God. I stated, "They had a thirst for the natural water, but not the Spiritual water." I then went to John 4 and expounded on Jesus' dealings with the Samaritan woman at the well. All she was looking for at first was natural water that came from Jacob's well, but after conversing with Jesus, she had a desire for that water that she would not "come hither to drink again", but would be in her a well of water springing up into everlasting life. I then went to Rev. 22 and showed them the Source for this water, water which proceeded forth from the Throne and also from the Lamb...this water is clear as a crystal.

    I then mentioned to the pastor...he's a carpenter by trade, that after you toiled all day in 95+ degrees heat and you had no water, if someone offered you a glass of cold water, you'd take it and not reject it(he even reached his hands out like he would take it from me...I had a cup of cold water in my hand, btw). I said that's how God deals with His children. He makes them thirsty,"'Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteouness, for THEY SHALL BE FILLED." I said notice how Jesus sated that. He stated, "THRY SHALL BE FILLED." I then stated if God places a thirst and hunger in someone's life, they will be filled.


    They lapped that sermon up like a thirsty dog does water...sorry about that pun...


    If God places a thirst there, Steaver, you can guarantee it, God will quinch that thirst....

    A person who has a 'God placed thirst' will drink that Spiritual water like a thristy man in the Sahara desert would...they would FREELY drink it if offered....
     
    #8 convicted1, Apr 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2015
  9. Sapper Woody

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    To follow your analogy, anyone who doesn't drunk will be thirsty. No, they don't choose to be thirsty, it happens to everyone when they're without water.
     
  10. convicted1

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    The point I am making is that no one has the ability to make themself thirsty. Even if all we did was sleep for 12 hours, we still end up being thirsty. We can not make ourself to thirst after righteousness. TBS, once God places that thirst(and hunger) in one's life, He will quinch that thirst, too.
     
  11. steaver

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    I believe your sermon as presented actually goes against Calvinism's proclamation that regeneration comes first. The "living water" is "eternal life", In your sermon you would be saying God draws by giving thirst, this thirst is NOT regeneration for the person has not yet received the "living water". They are but thirsty still.
     
  12. convicted1

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    A dead person has no thirst for righteousness, Steaver. Those who thirst for righteousness have not yet been filled. Just like a thirsty person has not yet had a drink of water. Thirst precedes being filled...
     
  13. steaver

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    You are missing the contradiction in your position. Thirst is NOT regeneration according to Jesus Christ. Thirst is ONLY the drawing, the Living Water is the regeneration. This Living Water, the Spirit, was NOT YET GIVEN, until Jesus Christ was glorified AFTER His resurrection.
     
  14. convicted1

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    Being thirsty is evidence of the regenerative power of the Spirit. The Spirit quickening a sinner to life causes them to see their need(thirst) of a Saviour. Unless you are thirsty, you will never come and drink of the water of life freely. Unless quickened, a sinner will never get thirsty....
     
  15. steaver

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    Yes, you already said that and I showed you that it goes against what Jesus said, (John 7:37-39), thirst comes before the living water. It is the living water, the Spirit, which then quickens one with eternal life.

    Read this carefully....

    John 4:14 - "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

    How is it you say those who already have this living water then get thirsty? If it is as you believe, that God regenerates them first, then they would have no thirst for what they already have been given....for Jesus said once they receive the living water they shall never thirst.

    "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst;"...but you say God gives them the living water and then they thirst.
     
  16. steaver

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    Willis, to sum your belief up on this issue in one sentence, it would be...

    'Jesus first gives a person living water so that they can become thirsty'.

    Now does that make sense?
     
  17. steaver

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    This living water issue sure silenced the Calvinist on here.......
     
  18. Reformed

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    Brother Willis, you are correct. The sinner does not desire living water, nor can he understand his need for it (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1). It seems redundant to come back to those oft used passages, but they communicate the consistent truth that sinners are incapable of any positive spiritual action apart from God first making them capable through illumination/regeneration.
     
    #18 Reformed, Apr 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2015
  19. steaver

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    So God gives them the living water first so they then get thirsty? Jesus said if they have the living water they will never thirst! That's the difference between the biblical view and the Calvinism view.
     
  20. steaver

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    392 views and the question remains for the Calvinist.
     

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