Regeneration

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by GordonSlocum, Jan 27, 2007.

  1. GordonSlocum

    GordonSlocum
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    I wonder if it is possible that "Calvinist" or a single Calvinist can clearly, with Scripture, make a case for Regeneration before salvation.

    There are only two passages in the NT that use the word "regeneration". The one in Matthew deals with the resurrection. The one is Titus 3:5 does not define a process for or against anyone's position.

    Who will step forward and list the clear teaching form Scripture.

    Please do not quote dead and or living authors. Tell us from the Bible. Can you as an individual without the statements form others make a case from Scripture on your position concerning "regeneration".

    The door is open for you to lay it our Scripturally.

    Have at it. :godisgood:
     
    #1 GordonSlocum, Jan 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2007
  2. Brandon C. Jones

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    Who cares? Didn't they close the old C/A forum for a reason?
     
  3. EdSutton

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    Yep! This one:

    [​IMG]

    Ed
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Gordon,

    I gave you a good source that would address the question. Yes, a Calvinist can make a good case for it. The only question is if you are looking for an answer or an argument. If you are looking for an answer, then start with John Murray.
     
  5. GordonSlocum

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    Why am I not surprised?

    No answer is a good answer.


    Thanks
     
  6. skypair

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    Hey Gordon,

    Don't be too hard on the Calvies! :laugh: To really find scriptures of "regeneration," you have to include "rebirth," "born again," "new creation," "new creature," etc. scriptures. Those, of course, clearly show belief precedes regeneration.

    skypair
     
  7. Brandon C. Jones

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    Yea, let's congratulate oursevles on the victory :applause:
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why would you be surprised that I give you a reference to a short little book by someone who defends the position you asked a question about?

    Did you really not want an answer? Go read Murray, and then let's talk. Murray is a good representative of that position and you can outline your disagreements with him and we can interact. (I disagree with Murray, incidentally).

    So until you do that, we have to conclude that you are just looking for an argument.
     
  9. MB

    MB
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    Hi Gordon;
    Using the term regeneration no one can but the word saved I can. Regeneration means saved because it is being made new. We are regenerated when we believe or have trusting faith.
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Belief or faith comes first.

    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    How are we children of God???? by faith

    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    Still we aren't saved by what we do, but we are saved by what Christ did. We have to have our own faith to believe but righteous faith comes from Christ. I like the Bibles explanation better than mine. Paul said;

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Where ever the Word speaks about how to be saved. it's always through faith. We are saved by Grace through faith every time.
    Grace can only be had through faith and it grace we need to be regenerated or saved. We must have faith in order to be justified.

    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    If faith preceeds grace and we need Grace to be regenerated then faith always preceeds Grace.

    Calvinism teaches the opposite that we need Grace to have faith and this is why no one can prove this position with scripture. It simply isn't in scripture.
    MB
     
  10. christianyouth

    christianyouth
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    This is an except taking from Ezekiel 36 , NKJV
    16 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity. 18 Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it. 19 So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds. 20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD, and yet they have gone out of His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
    22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
    33 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it.

    Notice this, Israel was rebellious against God continually, as manifested by child sacrifice and the whoring of themselves to other gods. The above states that they actually 'profaned' YHWH's name everywhere they went! He even compares their actions in the sight of the Lord as the 'uncleaness of an impure women' ( I will not elaborate on this one, EWW! ).

    So, what did God do because all of their rebelliousness? So, He poured out wrath on them, and scattered them throughout the heathen nations.. And did they learn from this judgement of God? Did this judgement bring them back to the Lord? No way! They instead just blasphemed God's name among all of the pagan kingdoms!

    God doesn't like having His name dragged through the mud, so He said He would restore Israel.. He would CAUSE them to fear Him and obey His commandments, He would MAKE them walk in His laws and ordinances.. He uses a great analogy that they had hearts of stone, but He would remove Israel's heart of stone, and give them a heart of flesh!

    It sounds to me like God did some overriding of the human free will. This is a great section that shows God's work in regeneration, by taking a heathen, God-hating people, and distinctly telling them that He is going to restore them, and notice this, not because of THEIR sake, but because of His holy name's sake.

    I hope this helps, read this passage thoroughly, and then respond if you think I read into this text, ( which I might have ).

    In Christ,
    Andy
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    I'm just an amatuer Calvinist, but I would think regeneration and salvation are the same thing.
     
  12. GordonSlocum

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    Skypair and Brandon here is your answer


    rebirth," "born again," "new creation," "new creature

    OK So these words are in the NT and I can find them and they will back up your claim that Born Again is before Salvation and new creation is before salvation and new creature is before salvation.

    Here is a quote form my Original Post “I wonder if it is possible that "Calvinist" or a single Calvinist can clearly, with Scripture, make a case for Regeneration before salvation.

    Well here are the results using the three words you furnished and nothing. Someone said you can run but you can't hide. Where will you run to now? What clear verse teaches regeneration before salvation? That is a reasonable question.


    (1) First I tried “born again” in the KJV, NKJV, and NASV “the terms are not even used.

    STRIKE ONE

    (2) Second I tried “new creation” KJV, NKJV, and NASV

    Galatians 6:15 speaks of “new creation” but does not address the question (NASV)
    The KJV does not use the words “new creation”
    II Cor. 5:17 speaks of “new creation” but does not address the question (NKJV)

    STRIKE TWO


    (3) Third I tried “new creature” KJV, NKJV, and NASV

    The NKJV does not use the words “new creature”
    II Cor. 5:17 speaks of “new creature” but does not address the question (KJV and NASV)

    STRIKE THREE

    Skypair and Brandon both of you are out. Is this the best you have?

    STRIKE THREE YOU ARE OUT
     
    #12 GordonSlocum, Jan 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2007
  13. christianyouth

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    Well, the thing is as I stated in a different post entitled The Vague God - is God Ambigious, It is logically impossible for someone to generate faith. That is, one cannot convince themselves that Jesus was the Son of God, or that there is an inivisble creature running around in the attic, it is just not possible.

    If Faith is brought by the Holy Spirit, then Calvinism is true. If Faith is a result of human free-will, then Calvinism is false.
     
  14. MB

    MB
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    Hi Gordon;
    The holy Spirit doesn't give us faith, He uses the word to give us faith and it comes through hearing it. The Word gives us faith, and here is scriptural proof of it.
    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    I'd like to know where it says that the Holy Spirit gives us faith. If the word does teach this then show me so I can study it on my own.

    The first verse clearly shows where faith comes from. This is our faith, it doesn't save us though it makes our saving probable. The Word is only the seed if that seed produces fruit then the Lord prunes it to make it bare more.
    Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    The fruit means we are saved that God has given us the faith of Christ and now we are justified. Those who bare no fruit are cut off the vine and thrown away.
    Then John says.
    Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    You see we are not saved the moment we believe because we have to bare fruit in order to be purged or pruned.
    We are told to believe in Christ and we can if we are convinced by the Word.
    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    So that the whole process is completely by God doings it is only possible that we might be saved. It's still the Lords decision to give us the faith of Christ.
    MB

     
  15. GordonSlocum

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    I will give you credit for trying and posting Scripture. Of course the passage is speaking of Israel. It is speaking to the nation as a whole not to individuals, "Therefore say to the house of Israel" There are countless Jews who have come to salvation individually. This salvation is a corporate salvation.

    These verses do not speak to a personal salvation of individual Jews.

    There is nothing in these verses that supports the process of Regeneration of an individual where by that individual person can then have faith in God and be saved.
     
  16. GordonSlocum

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    Time to laugh. :laugh: You are ducking, bobbing, weaving, hiding and stepping form one side to the other. Someone needs to recruit you to their football team as a back.

    Send me a copy if that is your premise for being apart of this discussion

    or

    Defend it yourself.
     
  17. GordonSlocum

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    I know - As soon as a person can stretch a gnat around a telephone pole then and only then will there view be true. Someone would say that is sarcasm. They would be correct. Their view of regeneration is the gnat and the truth is the telephone pole and the gnat will never be stretched around the telephone pole. OK everyone lighten up. Go count to 10 and take a deep breath. Smile and laugh. :laugh: We are debating not fighting.

    Thanks and Is there any hope for our brethren in Christ who are Calvinist? Makes you wonder sometimes don't it.
     
  18. GordonSlocum

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    They are in the real world of True Bible Exposition. Regeneration only takes place once not twice and it follows faith in Christ. Have never been able to find it any other way in all the versions I have and that is most of them including the Greek.

    You are correct.
     
  19. GordonSlocum

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    Isn't it amazing that so many Calvinist bob and weave and dance all around the Romans passage.

    God sends a witness
    Witness tells of Christ
    Men hear
    some believe some don't
    The believing ones are "REGENERATED" SAVED

    WAIT JUST A MIN

    Could it be that there are spurious writing we have not seed that they have copies of that reverses the process?

    Could it be that they are getting this view from something like that?

    Lighten up it is a discussion have a little fun.

    But perhaps Calvinist do get this view from some Gnostic or other type of writing. Philosophy has to be the answer - that is is they get it form philosophy.
     
    #19 GordonSlocum, Jan 27, 2007
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  20. whatever

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    Probably not to your satisfaction, so I am not sure that I even want to try. I just want to point out that you are asking the question wrong. Regeneration and faith are both part of salvation. The question that you want answered is, does regeneration precede faith?

    My answer - chronologically they are simultaneous, but logcally regeneration (aka "the new birth") must precede faith and repentance. No one can choose to be born again any more than anyone can choose to be born the first time.
     

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