Religion of ruin?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Deborah B., Apr 22, 2005.

  1. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have always wondered if catholics were going to hell. I mean, the fact that they pray to Mary and the saints, works for salvation, unbiblical purgatory, rosary beads, statues of Mary and saints galore, etc. etc. I ask would any of this take away from the fact that catholics do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins. I saw John Paul II as a man of strong faith, so it was hard to imagine somewhat like that going to hell, or billions of cathlics for that matter. So I have been praying for an answer. It just so happens that I am currently reading Deuteronomy, and today within two minutes of reading I came across this:

    Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt7843 yourselves and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,........(further explaining the second commandment)

    Now I have seen Pope John Paul II and catholics bowing down to statues of Mary a thousand times in the past, kissing it's feet, etc. I watched out of curosity a mass that John Paul II did last year where they paraded a statue of Mary around St. Petersberg Square with 200,000+ people cheering fanatically and praying to this statue as it passed by them. The priests carried the statue around for at least 45 minutes through the entire square so all would be in awe of her/it. It was about a 4 foot tall statue of Mary and she was wearing a 2 foot tall gold crown. It was really shocking to me!

    So anyway, how do the catholics feel that this is acceptable??? In Deut. 4:16, there is the word "corrupt" = Strong's H7843
    שׁחת
    shâchath
    shaw-khath'
    A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

    Could the truth be that catholics have decayed, ruined, lost their salvation because they are continually breaking this commandment from God and they never confess it as a sin to God??? I realize that our salvation is in Christ alone, but aren't we told that no sin can enter into Heaven and that we must confess our sins? Is the catholic church truly a wolf in sheeps clothing???

    Thoughts?

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  2. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think we focus on the wrong things in life. True the RCC leaders are somewhat if not totally blind to true Christian living and the numbers of its church who think they are Christians and are not is astronomical. I live near Lourdes and I have worked in Hotels where these RC pilgrims stay and I have seen for myself how they are ungenerate duped people.

    But there are people within the Protestant churches just the same. Its life, and the best thing we can do is live OUR lifes the best we can for the Lord Christ.

    Its sad, the condition of the RCC, so much pomp and ceremony.

    Another thing, a lot of people make a living from the pilgrims, there are countless rows of shops selling religious nic nak stuff and its fierce competition. Like the silversmiths in Ephesus with Paul, if anyone went in to Lourdes and started to change things and people began to be changed there would be uproar with the 'artisans' and no doubt the officials too.

    The devil has a strong grip in Lourdes as anywhere else but when you see it close up it makes you realise the reality of Christianity and what a spiritual warefare it is.

    David
     
  3. Born Again Catholic

    Born Again Catholic
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    This article answers most of your objections and ones you are likely to bring up in the future

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

    For your argument to be consistent you should run around and remove any teddy bears,dolls and pictues of family memebers from your house. In fact there are christian groups which require this of their members.

    After you are done with that you should ask that the Lincoln Memorial and Mt Rushmore be dismantled.

    I like having pictures/representations of my family around and I see Mary and the saints as part of my family, I no more worship them than I worship pictures of my grandfather.

    [ April 22, 2005, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: Born Again Catholic ]
     
  4. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do NOT bow down to or pray to any picture of family members in my house. I do not pray to any national monument or bow down to it. There is a HUGE difference there.

    Please answer, why do catholics literally bow down at the feet of a Mary statue and pray and then kiss her feet??? I do not bow down to nobody in my family or pray to them or kiss their feet. My Christian brothers and sisters are part of my spiritual family, but I would never bow down to any of them. Please consider the 2nd commandment and don't try to make excuses about pictures or monuments, etc., none of which I bow down to or pray to.

    This says it all....

    Exo 20:4-5
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,.......(this includes a male or female - Deut 4:16).

    Thou shalt not bow down to them!!!!!! This could not be any plainer. So I ask again, why do catholics think this is okay to do?

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  5. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    The link you posted is twisting scripture and full of excuses. You cannot possibly think that just because God gave Moses specific instructions in building His temple for the JEWS that it is okay for catholics to bow down to a statue of Mary. There is NO connection there whatsoever!!!! God never negated the second commandment. He wanted His temple built a certain way and gave details on how He wanted it, and what God wants is what will be done, period! Is there anywhere in the Bible where God said to place statues of Mary in His church or to bow down to her statue? Absolutely not! That site is basically saying that it is okay for catholics to play God. Uggghhhh
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    But didn't people bow down to each other in biblical times as a sign of honor and respect? (I'm sure if your tried, you could indeed find such instances in the Bible.) Why then shouldn't we so honor those brothers and sisters in Christ who have completed the race and have been glorified by the Father and are fully united with Christ, being fully conformed to His likeness?
     
  7. Born Again Catholic

    Born Again Catholic
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deborah B nice try but no cigar

    Can't you see your own blindness you read one verse in context which allows you to surround yourself with graven images at home then the next verse out of context to castigate Catholics.

    I will sincerely pray for you.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is true. And both RC historians AS WELL AS RC pastoral publications recognize this clear and obvious link between Catholicism and paganism.

    Here we see a RC Pastoral source admitting to the common ground on some of the very things you mentioned.

    Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

    Pagan prayer methods.

     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Here we see a Catholic Historian (A Catholic who IS a Catholic Historian - AND pro-Catholic) -- showing source of paganism in Roman Catholicism.

    The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

    Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century
    So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

    How much influence did this have on the RCC “really”?

     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Imagine if the JW's or Mormons or some new startup suddenly pulled in a truck load of paganism or declared their leadership to speak "infallibly" or started to pray to the dead, or slaughtered heretics or ...

    Nobody would go for it.

    But since these practices are "old" history -- we are like the frog in hot water accustomed to the danger.

    Having said that - the question you ask in the OP post is a good one.

    How much error is TOO much error?

    I think the answer will not show that nobody is saved in the RCC. At the same time it will not show that "error does no damage to the Gospel".

    All error is bad.

    All error does some damage to the Gospel. It distorts our view of God and of salvation.

    In Matt 16 Christ commended Peter for accepting the truth about the Messiah and then denounced him as "Satan" when he balked at the 'next truth' (a truth that was undoing some bad tradition and bias he had from his childhood).

    The fact that he was at the HEAD of the class during the blessing part of that chapter did not stop him from being sent to the BACK of the class when he turned is nose up at "truth".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    But didn't people bow down to each other in biblical times as a sign of honor and respect? (I'm sure if your tried, you could indeed find such instances in the Bible.) Why then shouldn't we so honor those brothers and sisters in Christ who have completed the race and have been glorified by the Father and are fully united with Christ, being fully conformed to His likeness? </font>[/QUOTE]Doubting Thomas, not my words but the words of God:

    Exo 20:4-5
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,.......(this includes a males or females - Deut 4:16).

    Do you see it??? "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them". God did not say "except for the mother of the Messiah". Mary is not walking around here on Earth. She is not a physical human being here on Earth that catholics are bowing down to out of "honor and respect". Catholics are bowing down to a graven image. Your excuse does not hold up to the word of God. Try again.

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  12. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the prayer for me, for we all need prayer, but there is no need to pray for something that I am not in error about. I do not bow down to anything in my house or out of my house. And btw, since when would a photograph of my children be considered a graven image? A graven image is something that is carved, like a STATUE or idol.

    graven image H6459
    פּסל
    pesel
    peh'-sel
    From H6458; an idol: - carved (graven) image.

    A statue is a statue, a man-made graven image, no matter who the statue is representing. Catholics bow down to Mary statues, right? It doesn't matter if you deny that you are worshiping her or just giving her honor and respect, because you are still doing what God said not to do, and you go on doing it and not confessing it as a sin, thereby encouraging 1+ billion other people to continually perform the same sin.

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Also from Scripture:
    "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy" (Ex 20:8)

    Just curious, what day of the week do you worship on? How do you spend your Saturdays?

    He didn't say keep the Sabbath only til the Messiah came either. Are you a "Sabbath-keeping" baptist?

    But Catholics believe she is a member of their family in heaven.

    Context is everything, Deborah. The commandment was meant to forbid the worship of idols, false gods. God had yet to become Incarnate in Christ so He could not yet be depicted artistically. When God became man in Christ, a lot of things changed. Christ, the express image of God, became visible and could thus be depicted artistically. The reverence paid to His Icon thus passes to Him. Likewise, the saints in heaven, including the Theotokos, who have been perfected in Christ are honored with the respect (to a lesser degree) paid to their icons. This is not an excuse, but is the glorious implication of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ who is our salvation, Who rescues us from the "letter of the law" since the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. We are to serve in the newness of the Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). That's why I wouldn't be too quick to lump venerating the icons of Christ and His saints with the bowing down before the graven images of false gods simply in your zeal to keep "the letter".
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    What he was doing in that case was taking the Jewish interpretation of the commandment, which is not to MAKE any image FOR ANY PURPOSE, to prevent any possible bowing down to it.
    Most of us believe that that was not the real intent of the command; but the Jews, living by the letter of course; would be extra restrictive to be safe.
    So no, having pictures in the house does not violate the command as religiously bowing to a statue or picture (including bas relief, DT!) does!
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    But people did a lot of bowing down in the Temple which contained many "graven images" made at the command of God. There are even graven images of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant which the Israelites treated with high honor because of what it represented.
     
  16. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Just as kissing a picture of an absent (or deceased) family member here on earth doesn't mean I'm worshipping that family member as God (let alone worshipping a photograph itself), neither does kissing an icon of a saint, a family member in heaven, necessarily mean one is worshipping that one as God (or worshipping painted materials).
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
     
  18. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly Bob, right on! The question is plain and simple....Do catholics bow down to a graven image. But then I get answers from them, "yes, but.. but.... but... but... but... but...", and on and on. God did not make any exceptions to His law, either you keep it or break it. So back to my orginal question..... would continually breaking the 2nd commandment and never confessing it keep catholics out of Heaven, no matter how spiritual a person is (i.e. the pope)?

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Deborah - the interesting thing is - that quote is from a well known Catholic source -- Catholic Digest's Fr. Ken Ryan.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well; I don't do that; I guess, because I have no reason to. Because of the very fact that it is not the real person; why give affection to a representation of them. They ar enot receiving it. Some people may do that; because of their own feelings, and it becomes a sort of parallel of our substituting visible objects for the invisible God. (I also don't believe in spending thousands upon thousands of dollars to parade and then dispose of dead bodies! That is a racket if I ever saw one; playing upon/profiting from people's emotions! :mad: And Americans complain about taxes!)
    What Icon? Nobody has any image of him preserved. Most of the images people are venerating are of some Italian guy in the middle ages; and they have modified it into the brunette we are most familiar with today. People back then did not draw images of Christ; because of their interpretation of the Second Commandment. Even if God was incarnate now; his body/flesh was not what was his divinity was; so it was not to be worshipped (as that church does with supposed shrouds, holy grails, and other physical stuff he supposedly touched). So no; the Incarnation does not change that God is ultimately "invisble, in a Temple made not with hands", and "the Heavens cannot contain Him". The Oneness could argue otherwise; and I think even most of them still try to say that God was still Spirit in Heaven while Christ walked the earth; though they call them the same "person".
    The spirit of the second commandment is that ANYTHING we put before God becomes an idol (whether visible/tangible or not). This does not free us to literally bow down to objects; but instead further implicates that practice. People bow to these things; cross their chests in front of churches, put ash on their foreheads; etc. and think nothing of really obeying God; even the commandments that the Church does emphasize like monogamy and other moral issues, hatred, etc. These are idols that have in effect taken the place of the true God. Te people keeping "the letter" in the sense you are talking about, would be the Jews who felt that they were alright because they did not literally bow down to anything. But they had their agenda (of what God shoul do; of what Messiah should be, all centered around their righteousness); which caused them to reject Christ; and that was definitely an "idol". And yes; many of us who condemn the Catholics for literal idolatry need to watch out as well. Many do have a similar moral/cultural agenda that becomes an idol. But still; in no case does literal bowing to things become OK now. God is still invisible; and Christ has now gone back to Heaven, and the "incarnation" in this age is now the [invisible] Spirit in us, the new "temples" of God!
    And once again; the Spirit of the Law means it becomes all the more restrictive. While they were not actualy bowing TO things, there was still a lot of focus on visible items for worship. You could also add the brazen serpent they were required to look on to be healed (Kind of suprising to me that God would order this; when you would expect that more from pagans). But here is where I would agree with Calvin, Chrysostom and others about the "puerile instruction of the Law". God allowed things like that because they were the carnal, unspiritual nation, and what He was doing was in preparation for the New Covenant of the Spirit anyway. Just like there were visible appearances of God back then too; but after Christ, there are none. We live through the Spirit, by faith today. Visible things were apart of that very "letter" you are talking about. They were only shadows of spiritual realities. What the liturgical churches have done is take us right back to the OT; only changing the weekly and annual days of worship; confident that THOSE are what distinguishes them from the Old covenant. But everything else is quite OT; even down to the use of "priests", and claims of supernatural rituals. The Eastern Church even copies the garb and beards of the Israelites.
     

Share This Page

Loading...