Repentance, Faith, and Lordship salvation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, Jan 25, 2015.

  1. Judith

    Judith
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    First let me say that no one gets saved by asking Jesus into their hearts. No prayer of faith will save you. No one gets saved by accepting Jesus as Saviour. There simply is no scripture to support such teachings. Bottom line much of the church is confused as to how to get saved and consequently I believe that the church today is made up largely of lost people. People who are mentioned in Mat. 7:21-23. Much like our nation who is confused by the liberal political agenda the church is confused by a liberal spiritual agenda.

    I believe that the confusion comes when we omit from or add to scripture. While there are several passages calling us to repentance there is no NT passage that says we are to repent of sin to be saved yet many people teach and preach this is what we must do when scripture does not teach that. Also there is no passage that says if we accept Jesus as Saviour we will be saved. A many a persons have wanted Jesus as Saviour but are not ready for God's rule. They NEVER get saved. While repentance is necessary we need to learn what repentance is necessary for salvation, and to do that we simply need to allow scripture to speak for itself.

    In Acts 20:21 it tells us what this repentance is. It is repentance toward God. It is not as much about what we are turning from, but Who we are turning to and how. Many people are willing to give up, or turn from certain things if they can get into heaven when they die. It is a mentality of "I don't smoke, I don't chew, and I don't go with girls that do." The problem is that they still do not want God to have His Sovereign place in their lives as He demands. Turning from sin does not allow Him His Sovereign place. However turning to Him as our Sovereign will be seen in the turning from sin. Turning from sin is the result of salvation, not the avenue to it.

    Our practice of sin is nothing but the evidence that we do not want God to rule over us and that we really do not trust what He says is best for us. In other words we do not trust (faith) Him. We love darkness more then light. Jesus said why call Me Lord and do not do what I say?

    Once we acknowledge from our heart that we are ready to get right with God regardless what it will cost us we are in a state of repentance. We are then faced with the gospel. We are to take that heart of repentance and place it on the Lord Jesus Christ, who has been given all authority, which is faith. At that point we are born again forevermore. What follows is the turning from sin (repentance of sin). It is the result of salvation and part of the sanctification process. The turning from sin is the evidence of the repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not the avenue to Him.

    As for this being Lordship Salvation if we are not Lordship salvationists we are not saved. Christ is Lord and no place in scripture says that we can be saved by confessing, receiving, or accepting Him as Saviour. We confess Him as Lord. That confession has to be true in our hearts and live and not just on our lips to be a true confession and will be seen in how we live. God is not looking for acknowledgement of truth, but a full heart surrender to it which is seen in the life walk of the believer. We do not get a Saviour when we do not want His rule (Lordship) over us as our God and Master (Lord).

    For anyone to suggest repentance is not needed for salvation and a person can be saved and remain in rebellion in heart rebellion to God's authority/rule over them could not be any more false. It is like saying that God forces people into heaven who do not want Him. It takes both repentance and faith. I would add this. We do not get saved by doing nothing. We have to come to repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or we will not be saved.
     
  2. Van

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    Interesting post, thanks for sharing your understanding of scripture.

    I think logical necessity requires that if I turn to God, I am also turning from the prior condition, which was sinful. So your effort to slice it up, turning to God presalvation and turning from sin post salvation does not seem valid. Certainly repentance does not require me to stop sinning, but does embody the commitment to do my best to stop sinning, to make Christ the Lord of my inner man (self.)

    Now I also agree we must put our trust and devotion toward Christ wholeheartedly, not holding back any part of our heart from
    God's sovereign rule. That was the mistake of the third soil of Matthew 13.

    I disagee with the premise that if we put our faith in Christ wholeheartedly, we are automatically born anew forevermore. It is God, not us, who decided whether or not we believe wholeheartedly, and thus only if God credits our faith as righteousness, are we set apart in Christ.
     
    #2 Van, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2015
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    That is conversion but logically you have not dealt with the cause for you turning! God turning you is regeneration but if God is turning you, then you are also turning aren't you? Regeneration is the logical cause of conversion and neither occurs without the other but in this cause versus consequence effect.
     
  4. JamesL

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    "if we are not Lordship salvationists we are not saved" is laughable at best.

    More than likely an expression of a demented mind.


    The folks in Brooklyn believe this kind of exclusivity.
    So does the gang out in Utah.

    And they both have the same focus on works as the "Lordship salvationists"

    Birds of a feather......
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    The first three soils/hearts represent various types of lost professing people of God.

    Only the fourth soil represents "good" ground or saved persons. Notice it is designed to represent all saved persons and their various productivites or fruit bearing capability.

    The preceding context is about PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD who are lost - Matthew 10-12 who are rejecting Jesus Christ. Matthew 13 explains why PROFESSING PEOPLE OF GOD reject Jesus Christ.

    1. It is a heart problem
    2. It is a demonic problem (false doctrine by false tares).

    Of course, this post is not designed for Van but for those who have "ears to hear".
     
  6. Deacon

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    I knew so little when I first met my Savior.
    I recognized the darkness of my deeds and acknowledged Someone who had the power to save me from them. I believed he could do it. I turned from darkness to light.
    As I grew in faith, I learned more about this Person, my Lord.

    Lordship Salvation places a burden upon the unsaved that they need not bear until after they have crossed the line from darkness to light.

    Rob
     
  7. DHK

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    I was not raised in evangelical circles. I was raised in a church in which I never heard the gospel. At the age of 20, the first time I heard the gospel presented to me I got saved. In faith I trusted Christ as my Savior. I prayed. I received Him as my Savior, and he forgave my sins and gave me the gift of eternal life. (John 1:12; 1John 5:11-13)
    --According to you I am not saved.
    I never repented from all my sins. At the age of 20 I would never be able to remember all my sins, much less repent of them. :rolleyes: The Bible says:
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
    When a person believes, his heart is changed. Repentance is a part of believing. Repenting in and of itself is works. Salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself, not of works.
    I trusted Christ as my Savior, didn't go through a theology book to learn various theological definitions of repentance, Lordship salvation, etc.
    No, Christ saved me by His grace. I accepted his free gift by faith. The gospel is really very simple. But if you don't accept my testimony I am fine with that.
    I didn't know what Acts 20:21 said. I didn't even know there was a Book of Acts. I was biblically illiterate. I put my faith in Christ. It is Christ that saves, not Bible knowledge. Listing your sin and turning from each one is works. I don't have a works based salvation. My faith is in the sacrifice of Christ and the penalty that he paid for me. I accepted that payment by faith.
    My life began to change slowly after I was saved. That is a process called "sanctification." There was no immediate change at salvation, that I could see. I wasn't in the habit of "practicing sin," as a lifestyle. Of course, many of the unsaved live more righteously than many of the saved, and put believers to shame.
    Not true. I knew I needed a Savior. I was a sinner on my way to hell. Christ paid the penalty for my sin. I trusted him as my Savior. I was saved.
    But you want to take that away from me and tell me I am not saved??
    Hogwash! Your theology is messed up.
    It sounds to me like you believe in a works based salvation.
    Repentance does not equal faith. Get a hold of a good Bible dictionary.
    You are very confused. Salvation is not a process. It is an event.
    I guess I am not saved then. You really believe that?

    Christ is Lord whether you confess him as Lord or not. Christ is Lord even if you act as Hitler or Stalin. There is nothing that you can do to dethrone Christ. He is Lord; Creator of all; sustainer of all. What makes you think that you can MAKE Christ, command Him to do anything. You are a puny little creation of him. He is your Creator. You cannot command or make Christ to do anything. He already is Lord!! Learn that!
    The question is: Will you (as Saul did), submit to Him as Lord?
    He already is Lord whether you like it or not. Today is the day of grace. Today he offers to be your Savior. Tomorrow may be too late. Now is the day of salvation. If people do not accept him as Savior now, it may be too late.

    2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
    Repentance is the flip side of faith. When one puts genuine faith in Christ, their life changes so that they have repented already. The repentance is a fruit of their salvation, not a condition. Salvation is not by works, as you described. It is by faith and faith alone. You don't believe in sola fide??
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Judith,

    I agree with what you are attempting to say in the OP. However, one must be very careful how they phrase a statement. For instance you say:
    Yet Scripture states the following:

    John 1:11-13
    11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Romans 10:9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    Having said the above I believe that those who are truly saved will understand that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is something that happens after Salvation.

    I believe that Salvation is a supernatural act of God whereby He "New Births", regenerates, makes spiritually alive those who are dead in sin. The "New Birth" will be followed by conversion, the conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!]
     
  9. Judith

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    Lordship salvation like the word of God requires repentance toward God and faith in the Lord (not Savior) Jesus Christ as scripture states. If a person does not come to repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ they are not saved. There is no salvation offered for those who only want a Savior. Everyone who is saved is a Lordship Salvationist.
     
  10. Judith

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    Thank you for those passages;
    In the John passage to receive Him one must receive Him for who He is, Lord. Wanting Him as Savior and not Lord will keep a person in their sin.

    In the Romans passage it does not come across in the English properly. To hold to it literally it would be a works salvation and secondly no mute person could ever get saved because they cannot speak.
     
  11. JamesL

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    First off, you're correct that Romans 10:9-10. It's not translated right into English. After that statement, your understanding ran off the rails. Interesting

    And you need to read John 8:24, where Jesus said "unless ___ _______ _ __ __, you will die in your sins"

    He never made any mention of your lordship nonsense. He casts more light in verse 28


    It would realm help matters if you actually studied the scriptures instead of being led by your vain philosophy
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    Again, the scriptures teach to us though that ALL who call upon name of Jesus will get saved, and that God is the One who made Him Lord over us, not us having to "surrender and repent" of all of our sins in order to have real salvation!

    Salvation happens the moment a sinner receives jesus as their Saviour, God installs him also as the lord over them, and then starts the life long process of becoming conformed into image of Jesus...

    believe that those holding to LS do have a sincere motive, as desiring to see real conversions, but have over reac ted and gone beyond what the scriptures teach us!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    How can you know Him as Lord before you know Him? And you cannot Know Him until He saves you!

    The NASB translated Romans 10:9 as follows: that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved;

    I don't see how you get a works salvation out of the passage. Faith is an essential aspect of Salvation. I believe that Faith is the Gift of God at regeneration but Scripture is abundantly clear that we must exercise that Faith. That as I said before is Conversion!

    Judith, Judith, Judith, now you are getting ridiculous when you say the above.

    Have you ever said a silent prayer.? Did God hear you?

    I would say that 90% of my prayers are silent and God hears everyone of them. And when I am unable to pray the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me.
     
  14. JamesL

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    Judith had a point, though. The text says very plainly "if you confess with your MOUTH".
    We went through this issue in our bible study at church.

    Most few people who were adamant that the salvation in view is conversion and regeneration. I made the same point as Judith - IF this "saved" is the going to heaven kind, a mute person is doomed to hell.

    The text never says confess silently, or prayerfully toward God, etc. It says confess with your mouth.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    :thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:
     
  16. JamesL

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    You sure used an awful lot of page space with a full quote...to not contribute anything more than a couple of smilies?
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Judith made a solid post....I did not need to add to it:thumbsup::thumbsup:O.R. is offering some correction
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Apparently you are stating that the saved is not the going to heaven kind. However, the Greek word translated saved is the same as that used in John 3:17 and is also translated saved. I find it impossible that John 3:16, 17 are not talking about eternal salvation!

    John 3:16, 17
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    A few other Scripture:

    John 10:9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

    Luke 19:10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

    1 Timothy 1:15. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


    4982. swzw sozo sode'-zo; from a primary swv sos (contraction for obsolete saov saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
     
  19. righteousdude2

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    Okay Judith .... I think I see where you are headed; but what say you on the following verses? Verses that ALL require an outward as well as an inward act of confession of their sin and acceptance as Jesus as Lord of their life. I think Paul nailed it in Romans 10:9-10 and 13. These verses require both our outward and inward words of faith in order to be saved. And if he is right, that would appear to void your opening statement.

    Romans 10:9-10 “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

    Acts 16:30b-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”[/I

    John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me."

    1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

    1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

    With that said .... I agree that there is a great many folks, well-meaning and good intentioned folks that fill the pews, but have not yet placed their feet on the narrow Path Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7:13-14. I agree that the wider road is made up of a lot of people who think they are going to heaven, but due to their inability to make the commitment to let Jesus be LORD over all his or her life, are still walking on the freeway to hell! We must be willing to do more than say, "come Lord Jesus into my life and heart!" We must be willing to bow to Him as Lord, and truly follow Him as Lord of our life, words, actions, deeds, thoughts, worship, service and ministry, and dedication.

    You had a lot of very good points, and I commend you for being bold enough to make that statement public. However, Lordship rule of my life includes accepting everything He has to give me, including any of the gifts, without questioning, s long as those gifts lead to bearing fruit in my life! Shalom!
     
    #19 righteousdude2, Jan 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2015
  20. JamesL

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    That is 100% correct. Romans 10 is speaking of an Eschatological salvation promised to Israel. And now Gentiles have been grafted in. This is the thrust of Election, Chosen, Predestined, going back to chapter 8 and running through chapter 11.

    Too many instances of the same words and phrases sprinkled through those 4 chapters to miss it. Plus the larger context going back to chapter 5, of things related to the resurrection
     

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