Respect of Persons

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by JMF, Nov 29, 2002.

  1. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.

    Acts 10:43 To Him(Jesus) give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.

    (Acts10:9-23)The Lord was dealing with Peter about being a respecter of persons. Peter assumed that only God's chosen people could obtain God's salvation. The Lord was attempting to reveal to Peter that salvation was for the Gentiles also.

    Acts 11:17-18 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    It is evident that God is not a resecter of persons, He doesn't send people to Hell unless they will not turn. He doesn't send people to hell based on His will, for as this verse teaches, His will is that the wicked live.

    Romans 2:7-11 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

    Those that do well(believe on the only begotten Son of God) will live
    Those that do evil(do not believe on the only begotten Son of God) will die

    Simple as that, no respect of persons
     
  2. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, and amen. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  3. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Ken

    I assume you are supporting the scriptural teaching that Calvinism cannot be true since God is not a respecter of persons and never would have chosen one group over another without regard to their consent to have it so?
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, I am supporting the Scriptural teaching that Calvinism is true since God is not a respecter of persons and does not save one person based upon his performance and not save another person based upon his performance, since the Bible teaches that we are all conceived as spiritually dead persons and we cannot save ourselves.

    The Scriptural teaching of Calvinism is that salvation is all of grace so that no boasting is possible as man contributes nothing to his salvation, such as repentance and faith, that he does not first receive as a gracious gift from God.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  5. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that people are not saved through works. I agree that people do not seek god but that God seeks them. I agree that salvation is of God.

    I do not agree that God made the choice for them.
    Israel was God's chosen people, yet not all Israel was saved.

    God is not a respecter of persons; therefore, He wouldn't make a choice that one group would inherit eternal life and another would not. That's respect of persons.

    I had a friend who took another man's wife. In order to make it "acceptable" in God's sight, he became a Calvinist. After all he figured that if God does whatsoever He pleases then everything is God's will. God bless you guys.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's just great. Another non-Calvinist that wants to drag the debate into the gutter.

    Ken
     
  7. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don't see real life examples as dragging anything into the gutter. People do strange things to excuse themselves. JMF was making some honest points.
     
  8. cfolsom

    cfolsom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about this verse?

    Exo 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

    The Lord did what? Put a DIFFERENCE (respect) between Israel (God's chosen people. A type and shadow of things to come.)and the Egyptians (heathens, not wanting anything to do with God.)

    So, in the aspect of eternal salvation God has shown respect, so to speak, because of the work of Christ Jesus. Jesus said in John 6 All that the Father giveth me, SHALL come to me and I will in no way cast them out. Sounds to me like Christ has a certain respect for the ones God gave Christ before the foundation of the world.

    Changed like Saul,

    Elder Chris
     
  9. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    You really do hate Calvinists don't you, Helen, if you are willing to believe a cockamamie story like that. You really don't have any interest in an honest debate in this forum do you, Helen, as apparently your only use for this forum is to spew vitriol toward Calvinists.

    Ken
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's clean it up. One man's abuse of biblical doctrine does not testify to the truthfulness of the doctrine. If the story is as you say, then he was wrong to claim that as a reason.

    Respect of persons is one of the reasons why Calvinism must be true. If it is not true, then God would be respecting those who chose him for one of many reasons while disrespecting those who did not choose him. That is a major problem with the non-Calvinist position. God is no respecter of persons; he chooses without regard to anything in them, including their choice of him (which would be non-existent of Calvinism isn't true anyway).
     
  11. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    You really do hate Calvinists don't you, Helen, if you are willing to believe a cockamamie story like that. You really don't have any interest in an honest debate in this forum do you, Helen, as apparently your only use for this forum is to spew vitriol toward Calvinists.

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]No, I don't hate them at all, Ken. But I'm not terribly fond of the doctrine or of some of what it seems to engender either in its promoters or some who hear it. But that is something entirely different.

    I'm not spewing vitriol. JMF did not say he heard about someone who.... He said he has a FRIEND who -- this was personal knowledge on his part and I have no reason to call him a liar! I did say people use strange excuses, and that was reference to him claiming Calvinism was an excuse for what he did. It wasn't. But it was the excuse he chose.

    On the other hand, was his thinking logical or illogical -- this is what might be discussed rather than just telling JMF he was dragging the discussion into the gutter.

    If we didn't see Calvinism as presenting some very real problems, we wouldn't be here discussing it, would we? I've seen threads dragged into the gutter -- the evolutionists are famous for it on creation/evolution forums. Things degenerate into personal insults, mocking, sarcasm, etc. I don't see where JMF was doing that at all. A challenge or the mention of something someone has seen is certainly within the realms of a discussion thread from what I understand.

    Recently someone here wrote that all of this is, in essence, going round and round. That is right. But there is NOTHING on this Baptist Board, including personal problems and such of the contributors, which is new under the sun.

    So we write to help new groups and new individuals learn more about Christ, do better in their walk with Him, get clear about what Bible says vs. things like Catholic tradition...and all of this is good. Everyone needs encouragement and to think about the Bible. But I still don't think you will find anything new per se in any of the threads anywhere... [​IMG]
     
  12. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have to admit that is true, as likewise, if I did not see non-Calvinism causing severe spiritual problems for people I wouldn't be discussing these issues here, either.

    Have a good day. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your "therefore" doesn't make sense to me. One could just as easily have said, "God is not a respecter of persons, therefore He wouldn't depend upon what men decide when choosing who gets saved and who doesn't."
     
  14. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ken, the story is true and I can validate it with many witnesses. It may or may not be pertinent to this discussion, but it is things such as this that drive me to prove the errors of Calvinism.

    On the other hand I have been debating on the other side also with a man who works with me and attends a pentecostal holiness church. Our biggest disagreement is over the doctrine of eternal security. I believe once a person is saved they will remain saved . . . forever!He does not agree.
    He has not run off with another woman (of course I'll not say he never will) and has great zeal for the Lord, yet, he is lacking in the humility that helplessness creates. I conclude that he can not enter into greater comunion with the Savior because of pride of achievment.

    These are my thoughts.

    Jonathan
     
  15. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    np, I say that the teachings of Calvinism (and what you affirmed) are as follows:

    God makes the decision for every person as to whether or not they will be one of the elect.
    (And as you added, need not rely on man's decision)

    This is respect of persons.
     
  16. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, Chris

    Exodus 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

    It might do well to point out that the respect of persons spoken of in Acts 10 and Romans 2 is the same as I am speaking of. It is clear in the context of the named scriptures that this is dealing with the "salvation experience"(so to speak). When it comes time to be saved everyone must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ if they so desire to be saved.

    There is no respect of family, race, rich, poor, Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Catholic, etc. All must enter through the Door.

    In Exodus we find those who have already "entered in" to the ones who are chosen and likewise those who refused. Of course God loves His people (called out ones) and puts a difference between them and those who reject Him.
    This passage in no way supports the fact that God makes the choice for every person that will be saved or condemned.

    Jonathan
     
  17. JMF

    JMF
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2002
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    These are my thoughts:

    Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    God is a trinity
    Father, Son, Holy Spirit

    Man is also a trinity
    Soul, body, spirit

    The apostle Paul to the elect:
    1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jesus concerning the lost:
    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    It is interesting to note that there is no mention of the spirit in lost people.
    I assume that means it is dead.

    It is further intersting to note that sin can be attributed to the soul. ( And as far as I can tell only the soul, but this is something I am studying)

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.

    Jon's commentary on this matter:

    Soul= God the Father
    Body= God the Son
    Spirit= Holy Spirit

    God the Father could be called, for lack of a better word, "command central"

    So too in each person, saved or lost, the soul is the seat of the will. And, as already pointed out (Matt 10:28), the soul of the lost man is active.

    This does not mean that the soul need not be redeemed (to buy back). Based on the willful choice of that soul that exists in a lost man condemnation is or is not applied.

    The only sin that will not be forgiven is a sin of choice committed by the soul in willfully rejecting Christ in light of the truth and drawing power of the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    [ November 30, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: JMF ]
     
  18. cfolsom

    cfolsom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is how the Bible explains it.

    In Adam, when he disobeyed God's only command, Adam plunged every single person, except Christ, to hell!! God picked out those HE loved and made them whole by the blood of Jesus. The rest, well, God did not put them there. HE did not cause them to be there, God simply saved the ones he loved since before the fouondation of the world.

    God;
    2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    This is not Calvinism, it is Salvation by Grace!!

    Changed like God,

    Elder Chris Folsom
     
  19. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    np, I say that the teachings of Calvinism (and what you affirmed) are as follows:

    God makes the decision for every person as to whether or not they will be one of the elect.
    (And as you added, need not rely on man's decision)

    This is respect of persons.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I don't see the connection there. If God's decision has nothing whatsoever to do with man, then God is not a respecter of persons. If God's decision depends upon man's choice, then God is respecting the person's choice, which makes God a respecter of persons. So IMO your argument demonstrates the opposite of what you wish to demonstrate.
     
  20. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    God's decision isn't based upon man's choice. That's where your argument falls apart. God set to work the motion by which men are to be saved. Man can decide to hop on the salvation train or not. Either man chooses or he does not choose. God is not a respecter of persons in that regard. Therefore the argument does NOT demonstrate the opposite.
     

Share This Page

Loading...